About Lenny
Third try…
I grew up in a pretty religious family, but even though I participated in some of the rituals, I had always been sceptical about them. In high school I became a firm Atheist, and stood out like a sore thumb, being the only one in the entire school I think. After college, in my early twenties, I moved up to Johannesburg from Durban and became quite involved with a religious organization. Perhaps it was the the feeling of community or the family I missed, that got me attracted, but I stayed involved for about fifteen years thereafter.
Then, for some reason the doubts started. Perhaps it was the religious teachers or priests who couldn’t answer valid questions satisfactorily, logically or rationally, but my disenchantment with religion grew stronger. Eventually I just dropped out. Stopped believing. Confirmation of my disbelief came through intense reading, the Internet, etc. Knowledge freed the mind from belief in the supernatural, the absurd. There was a time after this that I called myself a born-again Atheist. I’m through with the militant phase. Now I’m just a secular humanist. Even sounds more pleasant.
I’m now a free-thinker, student of the sciences, art, ancient civilizations and history, politics, comparative religion and the human condition, anti-authority, libertarian.
I’m now into amateur photography, videography, blogging.
Favorite Quotes:
“Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense” -Chapman Cohen
“Religion is an illusion and it derives its strength from its readiness to fit in with our instinctual wishful impulses” -Sigmund Freud
“Religion provides the solace for the turmoil that it creates” -Byron Danelius
“All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher” -Lucretius
“The need for religion will end when man becomes sensible enough to govern himself” – Francisco Ferrer Gaurdia
“Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt” – H L Mencken
“Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool”- Voltaire
“Religion, a daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable” – Ambrose Bierce
“So many gods, so many creeds
So many paths that wind and wind
While just the art of being kind
Is all the sad world needs” – Ella WheelerWilcox
Find out what's on my mind
Cooooooool!!!!!
Thanks Rosh, you’re an Angel. I hope you find my blog posts equally coool!!!
wow your are ridiculous and btw the song viva la vida is not about fucking anit religion i am not religous but the song is about napoleon and how he almost tulred the world with the french empire it has nothing to do with renouncing religion lol
Actually, the song has various interpretations.
Ryan, your spelling and sentence structure is ridiculous. Now if you have a comment about a particular post, make it on the space provided at the relevent post. Ad Hominem comments are really uncool.
You’re off course entitled to your literal opinion about the meaning of viva la vida. Try acquiring an appreciation for poetry.
Your favorite quotes are ASININE. I will not criticize anymore. I don’t believe it is my place to judge anyone, so I will leave it at that. I will however pray for you. May you realize the person who placed you on this earth and the reason you were placed on this earth……
LANA, please don’t waste precious time praying for me. Rather use it to acquire an appreciation for the great literary talent of the authors of those quotes. Or continue studying the peurile nonsense contained in that fantasy book that has dammned your faith over and over again. The choice is yours.
It may also come as a bit of a shock to you, but the persons responsible for “placing” me on this earth were my parents ( a man and a women), and they achieved this magnificent feat by participating in a fairly well-known biological process known as sexual reproduction (some call it just plain sex or copulation). Now, I know they probably told you in Sunday school, that the stork did it with the help of a magical sky fairy with a “divine plan”, but I hate to have to break it to you that that is just not true.
So, the next time you say you won’t criticize or judge…don’t. I know it’s hard being honest, when you can simply beg for forgiveness each time you trespass, but please try…
All I can say is you and your values make me sick. You are completely blind and sounds like there is no hope for you…. So whatever floats your boat, so to speak…. And yes regarding your smart remark about SEX, I do know what sex is, I have children of my own…. Hello, I am not stupid!! Your remarks are DUMB and only make me upset that you believe what you believe, which we are all entitled to our own views, that is what makes the world go around. And sounds as though you live in a weird world…. Seems as though you thrive on keeping a “stink stirred” and probably always will live that way…. Oh and don’t worry I won’t criticize or judge, again that isn’t my place…. you have your beliefs and I have mine I think it best if we leave it at that…. I know you will respond, but I could care less what you have to say. I presume you are fueled by responding to remarks like mine and you get a thrill from it. Good for you if you do… You live a sad life. Just remember, I am not the idiot that has a website posting rediculous quotes, but again, that is your belief and I have mine. Gosh, I have better things and better people to talk with than ramble on to you, it is definitely not worth my time. Again you have succeeded in making another person absolutely astonished, amazed, and sickened by your beliefs. But one thing you can’t do is stop me from praying for you….
Funny, but I thought that religious people were instructed to “not judge others”. I learned this from my Christian background. Either Lana is very young, or she is incapable of having an intellectual conversation. The mere fact that Lana said she “had children and was not stupid” in the same sentence leads me to believe that she was not thinking clearly when she wrote what she wrote.
Look, people are not going to agree with everyone; that would be boring. It is nice to hear the thoughts and different perspectives of others; it stimulates thought. Lenny, I think you handled this beautifully with logic, and I also enjoyed the quotes you provided.
Lana, you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself.
LANA, LANA, LANA, just read out aloud what you have written and then take some time to re-examine the contradictory and sanctimonious remarks you seem to make with gay abandon. Don’t invite ridicule, and you won’t get it thrown at you.
And thanks for the compliment; I merely aim to inform, but “astonish?” Wow?
More of you, I think.
Yes, we need more of you.
JP
PS I think your quotes are quite wonderful. What an intriguing way of revealing yourself.
Lana, with respect, I think you need an education. Does it occur to you that in one short,ignorant sweep of the pen, you have consigned some of humanities greatest thinkers to the bin, as asinine.
Surely not ?
JP
JP, I knew there had to be someone out there who would appreciate those quotes; I chose them because it amazed me how so few words could convey so much truth and meaning.
Lenny, I see that this problem is endemic now, and I refer here to the kind of rubbishy, ignorant, and just plain rude, irrelevant comments like LANA’S, that quickly descend into angry vitriol, and darn right abuse.
Would you, ever just go to a site you knew you were not going agree with, and leave a comment calling people “idiot” “dumb”.
I mean, this woman, just bursts on with “your quotes are ASININE”
She ends up calling you dumb, she says you make her sick….
She is at pains, to twice, no less, point out that she doesn’t judge, or criticize , and then says “You live a sad life. Just remember, I am not the idiot that has a website posting rediculous quotes, but again, that is your belief and I have mine. Gosh, I have better things and better people to talk with than ramble on to you, it is definitely not worth my time.’
I have seen this kind of insanity before.
Initially only at institutions for the criminally insane, as my work has taken me there.
Now, I see it again, on blogs like yours, and mine.
I was just last night told by an anonymous person, that I made him sick, and that I was a lonely man, and pretty much the same stuff that this LANA spits at you with such impunity.
I have a theory, I think that insane asylums are giving their patients internet access perhaps as therapy and the rest is a is to b is to c….?
I sometimes think its the same person.
Who knows?
LOL. Perhaps they’re trying to get back at society by giving us some of that shock therapy…
JP,
Did you read Lenny’s comment to LANA’s first, completely harmless blog? With all due respect, it was very condescending and rude. That smart remark about sex was really unnecessary, and I really think you should keep in mind that Lenny was just as rude to LANA as she was to Lenny.
Rudeness and insults are perfectly acceptable on this blog. I don’t mind being called names. However, I take a dim view to irrational/illogical and untestable comments. Such comments will be met with rudeness and insults to match the degree of inanity reflected in the comment.
I totally agree. Lenny got LANA going and he was TOTALLY rude. Why do they think that it is okay for them to make crappy comments to others, but its “off with a head” (so to speak) if someone calls them on their own stuff. Seriously Lenny and JP, think about what was said to LANA first. The comments you guys are making apply to you guys just as much as it applies to LANA. You yourselves were being pretty judgemental.
Lana, with respect, I think you need an education. Does it occur to you that in one short,ignorant sweep of the pen, you have consigned some of humanities greatest thinkers to the bin, as asinine. (That sounds quite judgemental to me.)
I have a theory, I think that insane asylums are giving their patients internet access perhaps as therapy and the rest is a is to b is to c….? (Just plain rude and uncalled for)
Or continue studying the peurile nonsense contained in that fantasy book that has dammned your faith over and over again. The choice is yours. (right there Lenny dogged Christian beliefs, but he doesnt want them saying anything about his)
Lenny, what the hell makes you and yours so freakin superior? Really?
Hmmm, what makes me so “freakin superior?”
Let’s see now. Probably the same thing that makes you and Lana think that your religion is superior to everyone else’s.
When theists go around exerting their particular religion’s moral superiority, someone needs to step in and level the playing fields.
Religious conviction is not the best weapon to have in your armour when shooting from the hip. As I have said before, don’t invite ridicule…
Sorry to go on, but look at Ryan’s comment. It is beyond belief. It doesn’t even make grammatical sense, never mind semantic tableaux!
I have seen this grammatical form before too.
This is from a 7 year old who has overdosed on Ritalin.
Not criminally insane like LANA.
And lastly, why do these people, drugged up minors, and marginally psychotic cyber stalkers, always pick the “about” page to launch their attacks ? (This modus operandi is evident on my site too)
Ryan’s comment does not belong on this page, perhaps, because he is only 7, we can forgive him
But LANA?
Who criticizes a person’s choice of quotes ?
Its a personal attack, thats why they pick the most personal part of your blog, and, its calculated.
Mockery and humour aside, its somewhat disturbing.
Good night.
Actually, a few days after posting that reply to LANA, I felt that I had been too harsh on her, but now I feel somewhat better.
I don’t mind the personal attacks really; I just lament the fact that people don’t even try to make it sound rational.
Quotes are quotes. That’s all they are.
I’m actually quite sad no one has spewed hatred towards my list of quotes on my blog, considering I’m one of those pathetically idiotic Christians you speak of…mmm…
Gabrielle, I beg to differ: quotes are not “just quotes.” By your reasoning, passages (verses) from the bible are also just verses from the bible; they are just words and mean nothing.
A quotation is useful because it has significant literary value, in that it evokes certain emotions and is meant to appeal to the intellect.
With one stroke of your pen, you have done a great disservice to your own holy book by turning whatever literary value the bible has, into a meaningless jumble of words. You have probably just confirmed that people who get into a “religious fervour” after reading passages from the bible, are indulging in psychotic behaviour, because it can’t be the words turning them on, it must be something else entirely…
One other thing. I suspect that the majority of visitors to your site are pro-religious or Christian. So, it does not surprise me in the least that they have not maligned you or passed disparaging remarks about your quotes. Since there are no such remarks on your site, what does this tell you about any atheists who have visited your site? Atheists, generally (yes, there may be exceptions) understand the value of quotations and would only comment on any irrationality or faulty logic, if such was present.
hey Lenny
been very interested on most of what you wrote, that made me so curious and yes as a rat i have been killed, here i am making a comment unbelievable.
i will comment on both religious hoax emails and this on top, you know i dont even have to be rude but i have a heart for you and yeah i dont have to teach you or try to prove to you on christianity cos no one can and wont. and to finalise it all yes am a christian but what i will say to you is this you will know him, you know people think God needs backing, no he doesnt if he did then christianity wud be different so just wait he will do it himself and when he does you will change i can guarantee you for that and please let me know wen it does happen and kep in touch, it can take years but he will do it cos he never let his own down thats his creation in this case you cos he loves you…………. gosh i said i wont do this so i guess i will live it here.
regards
luce.
Hi Lucy,
Thanks for being brave and commenting. Unfortunately, I don’t have “years” to wait for your version of god to “change” me. Life is short, and you will apreciate that I have to live it. Since you seem to know this “god” so intimately, please ask him/her/it to hurry up and “do it himself.”
In the interim, I suggest you get on with your life and not wait for me to “let you know when it does happen.” Call me psychic, but I somehow know that you won’t be hearing from me.
Lennymaysay,
I don’t want to be rude and I definitely WONT preach to you. I just have one question that I want you to think about. If your claims are true, and, as you say, there is no God, then what will happen after death? We all get buried into the ground, the maggots and worms eat us and we are basically annihilated from all existence, right? Am I correct in saying that? However, and be honest with yourself, what if you are wrong and Christianity is right? Then what? Christianity states that believers would go to Paradise (Heaven) and be with God and those who dont believe would be in an excruciating torment for all eternity. This life is TEMPORARY and will one day end, but Lennymaysay, eternity is quite a long time, and frankly it isnt worth gambling on. Is proving your claims about Christianity (not knowing 100% for sure that they are right) worth your eternal damnation? I can guarantee you that there is a God and his son, Jesus, is real, because they both turned my life around. And I’m always taken care of, no matter what. I dont think that several times in my life can even compare to being a coincidence, because that and luck eventually run out and God doesnt. In that sense, I can also guarantee you that there are demonic spirits and a demonic place, I have felt their negative presence before. However, can you be totally sure and PROVE that there is no God, Heaven, Hell or Satan?
Hi Just me,
I’m really happy for you; that your life has turned around and that you believe that it was a supernatural intervention. However, your “belief” does not make the existence of these supernatural entities true. Even if every single person on this earth, apart from myself, “believed” this is true, it does not make it true in reality.
Allow me to present an analogy. I believe that there is a giant teapot orbiting the Milky Way galaxy, but I don’t go around the world trying to convince everyone that my belief is true, and so everyone else must also now believe it.
I’m not trying to prove there is no god and heaven and hell and satan; I’m just saying that there is no evidence (scientific or otherwise) for their existence. The atheist position is absence of belief. The onus is on you to prove their existence since you make a claim for it.
On a personal note, I’m not concerned about what happens after death. It’s really quite pointless stressing about the unknown. I’m quite happy to be worm food. In the interim, I’d rather focus my energies on living life.
Hey Lenny. I used to visit atheist sites out of interest. I don’t know why, I’m a religious person myself, but deep inside I knew, I had some doubts in my own faith too. I found God-venerating sites a little too defensive about their religion, and some Christians really verbally abusive to atheists. I started to believe that I might be in the wrong crowd because I was born with the religion and I thought I was becoming an atheist, as all my hopes about God were beginning to break, piece by piece, by rational people like you. I surfed the Web, and science and religion overwhelmed my minute brain. Too much information. Although I kept on holding back from agreeing to some of the facts and opinions presented by so many non-believing people – one day, it didn’t matter.
I am fascinated with the world – with everything. The science of it all. Although I’m an open minded person, it never occurred to me that everything in this world is a result of random events, and coincidence. It is too beautiful, too complex, too otherworldly that even water cannot be totally studied – at all!
The perfect example for something so unimaginable and meticulous is imagination. It seems to have such power: sometimes it is even bordering on infinity but then you hear of something very unusual about a certain subject that you could’ve never thought of you had the capability to think of.
And I come back on Earth and realize…there is a God. The universe is in perfect harmony. How come two people from the other side of the world meet and be in love with each other? Why are there things that seem to defy science and defies it more and more by the second? Good and evil is always balanced as if someone’s controlling it. Science cannot prove anything as of now – the steps in undertaking are too small to see the big picture.
Life for me is too short to spend on things I know I will regret: although there are some gray and black points all over my life that I can blame God for – but it is me who has chosen those path and here is where shall I remain – no further “It’s Your fault” rantings. Everything has a purpose, and maybe mine is to be a lesson for others. The South Africans starving and dying of AIDS…they serve a purpose.
It is not important what religion I have, for anything that’s organized and involves money can’t be kept out of evil. What’s important is what I believe in. And I believe that’s what matters. We can try to prove certain things: but actually it’s like the iceberg quote, “You only see the tip of the iceberg…etc.” We can try to prove that there is no such proof of His existence – it’s just trying. It’s something our feeble heads put together can never prove or disprove! Man sometimes thinks of himself as a very high, all-knowing, wise person when science says they come from Apes! Haha. ‘Tis quite funny. Men are names, they are nothing, things they invented remain (some even deprecate) but they do not reap what they sow after death. Which is quite a useless existence after all in my most humblest and honest opinion.
But in my heart, despite all the evil raging inside me, all the lust, all the hatred, the fear, the doubts, the unknown…there is the faith. I hope the world will never lose hope on this!
When I die I do not intend to be worm food. Although my body will be, that’s for sure.
I hope all the questions I have for the higher power shall be answered when that time comes. I’ll meet Him. People will think I’m deranged, but why am I happily so? Well the Joker seems to be smiling a lot too…but let’s not talk about him…
In case there’s isn’t any God…feel free to laugh at me. I guess it might come to you as real crazy. To me it’s something that’s worth striving for, ’cause after the end of the road… no one knows, and I just might be extra lucky. Too bad, if it isn’t. Surely I didn’t lose anything of importance.
“Yes, faith can be called ignorance. But no one can truly be called wise.”
You can quote me on that! Although those quotes are really mind-boggling.
Adieu, sire!
P.S.
I enjoyed your post. It is a very interesting read. If there’s anything wrong about what I said, please, feel free to tell me.
Hi DarkLady,
You sound sincere enough and if you’re comfortable with where you’re at, I wish you well.
However, please reconsider this statment that you made:
What if you were one of those SA’s dying of AIDS? Would you think that your condition was serving a purpose? And how do you suppose they would feel, if they were told that their suffering is “for the benefit of others, or a ‘higher’ cause? Think about it?
Yeah, now I think of it. Maybe that’s one thing I cannot justify, but I’ll try.
I didn’t starve my whole life, I don’t have AIDS, I do not know what it feels. But if I were starving, all I can think about is eating. If I have AIDS, I might not even think of God, as my head is preoccupied with keeping myself alive. Or maybe I don’t know about it. There’s nothing I can do about it but rely on my parents, on medicine, on NGOs. Or the government. With children, it’s not their fault, they are the products of their parents. With adults or teens it is a different case. You will not get AIDS by touching someone, right?
But it’s still unfair, right? Why of all people, me? Why not them? They’re evil, they kill people, they rob others, they cheat on their wives… I don’t know. But I do know I have lived a respectable life, and I will not be ashamed of what I have…I might be a living testament that there is hope after all…because even though life is bitter I managed to stay strong…
Well every person feels that on a certain degree the world is unfair with them, with other things. And sometimes they have it all but are still tormented that they kill themselves… I don’t know why, but it feels good inside that you know the money you made came from your own blood and sweat.
I can relate, because there are some issues in my life that I feel so helpless with. It’s not very critical, but I don’t want to invent something for dramatic effect…
I came from a very well-off family. We went to private school, me and my siblings. My parents did not ever spoil us, but they were very agreeable with children wanting material things. I went to college, and spent my allowance on everything but college-related. I never studied. I should’ve studied.
The next term we couldn’t afford it anymore. We became bankrupt. Couldn’t do anything about it. Two of us stopped going to school and I became a bum. I’m working now, still not a graduate, with low wages, and I realized I should never have taken it for granted. Not too many people go to college, or eat food once a day.
What if the world was given to you, complete, and everything you’ve ever wished for? All the knowledge is there, the food, the shelter, the people you want, no crime, immortality, in other words: perfect.
I figured it would actually be useless. Actually existence is not essential. You would take everything for granted. There is no room for improvement: much less thought. No work to do. You would never realize how life is so beautiful. There is no journey. You would never appreciate it like you do now. We need to lose something in order to learn that we need to value what we have. Sometimes, not even ours, but others as well… our conscience will whisper that we’re abusing things that people are desperately in need of…
That’s where examples and lessons come in. If I died of AIDS: let my death speak. I will regret the fact that I haven’t been too lucky, that I didn’t have the chance to live my life the way I wanted it to be – but I have been instrumental in a purpose far greater than Marilyn Monroe’s… that is, to echo the phrase, Life should not be taken for granted. I would not want other people to experience what have I experienced…it is too painful. But it should serve. Something better might be waiting for me, hopefully…
With mistakes we can be better persons. These are depressing situations, we cannot avoid them, we cannot change them as we do not have power over them, but out of it we can think of something good.
Sorry, I might not have answered your question the way you wanted it to be answered, I might’ve missed something, but I think I’m dumb when it comes to these things too. I think I am fairly shallow, haha. I do not understand how the world works as it is almost always cruel to me and my family…it is very unfair too! But on very tough times, we are able to survive, thanks to God (because most of the time we were incredulously broke it felt like a miracle that someone helped us).
(I’m from a 3rd world country.) When I think of it that way somehow I feel the burdens are lesser and the world is a little happier…
And sorry for taking up some much space in here!
Thanks Lenny.
Geez I sound way too cheesy!
Hi DarkLady,
Rational people don’t wish for the impossible. We learn to face the challenges of reality. We cannot create a make-believe world (supernatural) to deal with reality. In that way we only postpone the inevitable. We need to be real….always.
Hey Lenny. I used to visit atheist sites out of interest. I don’t know why, I’m a religious person myself, but deep inside I knew, I had some doubts in my own faith too. I found God-venerating sites a little too defensive about their religion, and some Christians really verbally abusive to atheists. I started to believe that I might be in the wrong crowd because I was born with the religion and I thought I was becoming an atheist, as all my hopes about God were beginning to break, piece by piece, by rational people like you. I surfed the Web, and science and religion overwhelmed my minute brain. Too much information. Although I kept on holding back from agreeing to some of the facts and opinions presented by so many non-believing people – one day, it didn’t matter.
I am fascinated with the world – with everything. The science of it all. Although I’m an open minded person, it never occurred to me that everything in this world is a result of random events, and coincidence. It is too beautiful, too complex, too otherworldly that even water cannot be totally studied – at all!
The perfect example for something so unimaginable and meticulous is imagination. It seems to have such power: sometimes it is even bordering on infinity but then you hear of something very unusual about a certain subject that you could’ve never thought of you had the capability to think of.
And I come back on Earth and realize…there is a God. The universe is in perfect harmony. How come two people from the other side of the world meet and be in love with each other? Why are there things that seem to defy science and defies it more and more by the second? Good and evil is always balanced as if someone’s controlling it. Science cannot prove anything as of now – the steps in undertaking are too small to see the big picture.
Life for me is too short to spend on things I know I will regret: although there are some gray and black points all over my life that I can blame God for – but it is me who has chosen those path and here is where shall I remain – no further “It’s Your fault” rantings. Everything has a purpose, and maybe mine is to be a lesson for others. The South Africans starving and dying of AIDS…they serve a purpose.
It is not important what religion I have, for anything that’s organized and involves money can’t be kept out of evil. What’s important is what I believe in. And I believe that’s what matters. We can try to prove certain things: but actually it’s like the iceberg quote, “You only see the tip of the iceberg…etc.” We can try to prove that there is no such proof of His existence – it’s just trying. It’s something our feeble heads put together can never prove or disprove! Man sometimes thinks of himself as a very high, all-knowing, wise person when science says they come from Apes! Haha. ‘Tis quite funny. Men are names, they are nothing, things they invented remain (some even deprecate) but they do not reap what they sow after death. Which is quite a useless existence after all in my most humblest and honest opinion.
But in my heart, despite all the evil raging inside me, all the lust, all the hatred, the fear, the doubts, the unknown…there is the faith. I hope the world will never lose hope on this!
When I die I do not intend to be worm food. Although my body will be, that’s for sure.
I hope all the questions I have for the higher power shall be answered when that time comes. I’ll meet Him. People will think I’m deranged, but why am I happily so? Well the Joker seems to be smiling a lot too…but let’s not talk about him…
In case there’s isn’t any God…feel free to laugh at me. I guess it might come to you as real crazy. To me it’s something that’s worth striving for, ’cause after the end of the road… no one knows, and I just might be extra lucky. Too bad, if it isn’t. Surely I didn’t lose anything of importance.
“Yes, faith can be called ignorance. But no one can truly be called wise.”
You can quote me on that! Although those quotes you’ve given are really mind-boggling.
Adieu, sire!
P.S.
I enjoyed your post. It is a very interesting read. If there’s anything wrong about what I said, please, feel free to tell me.
So sorry for the double post. And I’ve overdone it. So sorry.
Hi, that’s cool, no harm done.
Here are some interesting quotes from so-called denominational founders that should have taken the same road as Krishnamurti. All that denominations and religion itself does is create apostasy.
“I ask that men make no reference to my name, and call
themselves not Lutherans, but Christians. What is Luther?
My doctrine, I am sure, is not mine, nor have I been crucified
for any one. St. Paul, in 1 Cor. 3, would not allow
Christians to call themselves Pauline or Petrine, but
Christian. How then should I, poor, foul carcass that I am,
come to have men give to the children of Christ a name
derived from my worthless name? No, no, my dear friends; let
us abolish all party names, and call ourselves Christians
after Him Whose doctrine we have.” – Hugh Thomason Kerr, A
Compend of Luther’s Theology (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1943, p. 135)
“Would to God that all party names, and unscriptural phrases
and forms which have divided the Christian world, were forgot
and that the very name [Methodist] might never be mentioned
more, but be buried in eternal oblivion.” – John Wesley,
Universal Knowledge, A Dictionary and Encyclopedia of Arts,
Science, History, Biography, Law, Literature, Religions,
Nations, Races, Customs, and Institutions, Vol. 9, Edward A.
Pace, Editor (New York: Universal Knowledge Foundation, 1927, p. 540)
“I look forward with pleasure to the day when there will not
be a Baptist living! I hope that the Baptist name will soon
perish, but let Christ’s name last forever.” – Spurgeon Memorial Library, Vol. I., p. 168 Charles Haddon Spurgeon, one of the greatest Baptist preacher who ever lived.
And last but not least Jesus Christ…
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Bruce,
You are quite serious about this denominational thing, aren’t you? Could you not take it one step further to its logical conclusion, and abandon Christianity as well?
Then we could use the time to marvel at how science explains the wonders of the natural world (as opposed to the supernatural world), and debate more important things like the state of the world, poverty alleviation, pollution and self-serving politicians.
Lenny,
It is illogical to abandon your belief, but in order to truly know if you do believe in that which you say, you believe. Is to ask if you would die for that belief.
Today is remembrance day in Canada the whole country is shut down, as we honor those that died for us, that we may have a better life. A life that is built on democracy, free press, free thinking and the will to live.
If nobody fought we may not be here to issue our thoughts freely via the internet and the wireless communications we have today.
If nobody fought for the right to co-exist then we would have fallen prey to the Nazi’s and their Darwinian belief of a master race.
Adolf Hitler took Darwin’s evolutionary philosophy to its logical conclusions. For example, he wrote in Mein Kampf:
Such a dispensation of Nature is quite logical. Every crossing between two breeds which are not quite equal results in a product which holds an intermediate place between the levels of the two parents. This means that the offspring will indeed be superior to the parent which stands in the biologically lower order of being, but not so high as the higher parent. For this reason it must eventually succumb in any struggle against the higher species. Such mating contradicts the will of Nature towards the selective improvements of life in general. The favorable preliminary to this improvement is not to mate individuals of higher and lower orders of being but rather to allow the complete triumph of the higher order. The stronger must dominate and not mate with the weaker, which would signify the sacrifice of its own higher nature. Only the born weakling can look upon this principle as cruel, and if he does so it is merely
because he is of a feebler nature and narrower mind; for if such a law did not direct the process of evolution then the higher development of organic life would not be conceivable at all.62 (emphasis added)
The demand that it should be made impossible for defective people to continue to propagate defective offspring is a demand that is based on most reasonable
grounds, and its proper fulfillment is the most humane task that mankind has to face. Unhappy and undeserved suffering in millions of cases will be spared, with the result that there will be a gradual improvement in
national health.63 (emphasis added)
If Nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile.
History furnishes us with innumerable instances that prove this law. It shows, with a startling clarity, that whenever Aryans have mingled their blood with that of an inferior race the result has been the downfall of the people who were the standard-bearers of a higher culture.64 (emphasis added)
My logical conclusion is one; that without a higher love we are doomed and that we must first learn to love each other in order to love God.
Hi Bruce,
I suppose it’s perfectly logical to believe in talking snakes and talking burning bushes, and people walking on water.
I’ve visited your beautiful country twice and I am very impressed.
And here we go again: Hitler’s interpretation of Darwins Theory, and subsequent actions, should have no bearing on the validity of the theory or on the character of Darwin himself. By your own logic, the bible should also be condemned because of all the madmen who over the years used biblical teachings to inflict untold suffering on humankind.
I would really find it hard to “love” someone who is credited with the following, as compiled by one Simon Ewins.
1. He created evil (Lam. 3:38, Jer. 26:3, 36:3, Ezek. 20.:25-26, 1 Sam. 16:23, 18:10, Isaiah 45:7)
2. He deceived (Jer. 4:10, 15:18, 20:7, 2 Chron. 18:22, Ezek. 14:9, 2 Thess. 2:9-12)
3. He told people to lie (Ex. 3:18, 1 Sam. 16:2)
4. He lied (Gen 2:17, 2 Sam. 7:13)
5. He rewarded liars (Ex. 1:15-20)
6. He ordered men to become drunken (Jer. 25:27)
7. He rewarded the fool and the transgressor (Prov.26:10)
8. He delivered a man, Job, into Satan’s hands (Job 2:6)
9. He mingled a perverse spirit (Isa. 19:14)
10. He spread dung on people’s faces (Mal. 2:3)
11. He ordered stealing (Ezek. 39:10, Ex. 3:22)
12. He made false prophecies (Jonah 3:4. Gen. 5:10)
13. He changed his mind (Jonah 3:10)
14. He caused adultery (2 Sam. 12:11-12)
15. He ordered the taking of a harlot (Hosea 1:2, 3:1-2)
16. He killed (Num. 16:35, 21:6, Deut. 32:39, 1 Sam. 2:26, Psalm 135:10)
17. He ordered killing (Lev. 26:7-8, Num. 25:4-5)
18. He had a temper (Deut. 13:17, Judges 3:8)
19. He was often jealous (Deut. 5:9, 6:15)
20. He wasn’t omnipresent (Gen. 3:8-9, Gen. 4:16, 11:5, 1 Kings 19:11-12)
21. He wasn’t omniscient (Gen. 3:8-9, Deut. 8:2, 13:3, 2 Chron. 32:31)
22. He often repented (Ex. 32:14, 1 Sam. 15:35)
23. He practiced injustice (Ex. 4:22-23, Joshua 22:20, Rom. 5:12)
24. He played favorites (Deut. 7:6, 14:2, 1 Sam. 12:22)
25. He sanctioned slavery (Ex. 21:20-21, Deut. 15:17)
26. He degraded deformed people (Lev. 21:16-23)
27. He punished a bastard for being illegitimate (Deut. 23:2)
28. He punished many for the acts of one (Gen. 3:16, 20:18)
29. He punished children for the sins of their fathers (Ex. 12:29, 20:5, Deut. 5:9)
30. He prevented people from hearing his word (Isa. 6:10, John 12:39-40)
31. He supported human sacrifice (Ex. 22:29-30, Ezek. 20:26)
32. He ordered cannibalism (Lev. 26: 29, Jer. 19:9)
33. He demanded virgins as a part of war plunder (Num. 31:31-36)
34. He ordered gambling (Joshua 14. 2, Num. 26:52, 55-56)
35. He ordered horses to be hamstrung (Joshua 11:6)
36. He sanctioned violation of the enemy’s women (Deut. 21:10-14)
37. He excused the beating of slaves to death (Ex. 21:20-21)
38. He required a woman to marry her rapist (Deut. 22:28-29)
39. He taught war (Psalm 144:1)
40. He ordered the burning of human feces to cook food (Ezek. 21:3-5)
41. He intentionally issued bad laws (Ezek. 20:25)
42. He excused the sins of prostitutes and adulterers (Hosea 4:14)
43. He excused a murderer and promised his protection (Gen. 4:8-15)
44. He killed a man who refused to impregnate his widowed sister-in-law (Gen. 38:9-10)
45. He is indecisive (Gen. 18:17)
And I still don’t get why we need “higher love” to prevent some unspecified calamity. We are only doomed if we continue to believe in absurdities.
Lenny
So what are you saying, that you believe in the theory of evolution as truth for our planet and all of mankind?
Although an impressive piece of work I don’t think Darwin believed it himself.
Consider;
“To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree.”
Simon Ewins just like the religious zealots he fights try to make the bible say something other than it is actually saying allow me to take only a few of his examples and show that here.
1. He created evil (Lam. 3:38, Jer. 26:3, 36:3, Ezek. 20.:25-26, 1 Sam. 16:23, 18:10, Isaiah 45:7)
Duh! this is like saying that cars are not useful because they burn gasoline instead of diesel fuel which is 50% more efficient then gasoline. God told the first of us not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Since we did it is now His fault for creating in us freewill.
2. He lied (Gen 2:17, 2 Sam. 7:13)
How preposterous is this premise that God lied Adam and Eve spiritually died and the throne is not of this world. Before the fall, man walked with God and talked with Him. The point is you cannot touch, smell, or see it. It is like insurance there if you need it!
3. He is indecisive (Gen. 18:17)
God says in Proverbs 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked but he hears the prayer of the righteous. He was willing to listen to Abraham but the place was still destroyed. Putting anthropomorphic thinking on to God doesn’t work, because He is higher than our highest thought.
Hi Bruce,
I don’t believe in the theory of evolution as if it’s some sort of belief system that can be adopted to fit in with your world-view or personal beliefs. It’s like saying that the theory of gravity is just a theory. I accept evolution as a fact of life, because it has been scientifically verified and has stood up to rigorous analysis and testing which is beyond reproach. New evidence is found almost daily which backs up everything postulated by Darwin.
Yes, Darwin may have ben quoted as saying that, but note that he uses the word “seems” to clarify his apparent disbelief. It’s easy to quote mine or interpret what people say to conform to your own world-view. People have been using the bible for this very effect, for a long time. But Darwin is merelt saying that even though it sounds hard to believe, it is a fact. That’s the thing with science: it’s not about how popular or nice or feel-good something is; it’s about verifiable proof and rigorous testing.
About Simon Ewins: what makes you think that his interpretation of the bible is any more wrong than anyone else’s, including yours.
Lenny
The problem with the theory is there is NO missing link or any transitional forms to prove it. You think there would be literally millions of transitional forms to prove that we evolved from one cell. Pretty big stretch from the billions and billions and cells that just happen to fuse together to make me as I am.
The bible says that we are fearfully and wonderfully made Psalm 139 and the theory of evolution says we evolved from one wee cell into this complex multi-billion cellular creation that we currently are. I doubt that very highly. However we do evolve our thinking, we evolve our habits, we evolve our ways, we evolve raw intelligence into the usable functional intelligence that can share meaningful dialect in the search for truth.
The truth will set you Free…
Jesus Christ
I stand in awe of my body…
It is never too late to give up your prejudices…
Henry David Thoreau
Hi Bruce,
Please refer to my earlier response on evolution in the blog post “Another Religious Lie That Came Through my email”
I know this is going to sound harsh, but it needs to be said. I am the one sharing meaningful dialect; you have been sharing the fantasies and dishonesty concocted by others, to push the god agenda. Not surprisingly, none of the dialogue you have shared with me in all your previous correspondence as well, is new to me. I have heard it all before; debated it all before, debunked it all before. So, although you are not to blame for the absurdities, you unfortunately, have been caught in this insidious god trap that’s been sold to you.
It would be far easier to just tell people “go to hell and let me believe what I want to,” instead of using dishonest and uncritical rationalizations to substantiate your beliefs. I certainly would appreciate that much more.
Yes, the truth will indeed set you free, but you first have to find it.
Lenny
For your information I am not sharing anything concocted by others my reason for believing in God is personal and experiential. In my youth 20 years old or so I prayed to God and he showed me he was real. So now I personally believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy spirit as shown in the bible. What happened was something that was unbelievable for me and met a need at the time. I don’t feel caught in a God trap but I do believe that Christianity as a religion is fake and made to rob the ignorant of a meaningful relationship with God. So I don’t blame you or others for your reservations about religion.
This was my first experience. I’ve always had an entrepreneurial spirit and teamed up with another fellow to create a board game. We ran out of money, and had no food left in the cupboards. He was a Christian and I was not and I used to tease him sometimes unmercifully about his faith. We did have a box of macaroni and cheese in the cupboard but no bread or milk to go with it. Out of ridicule towards him and perhaps some frustration (hunger) I said I would pray to his God for the required milk and bread. And after doing so, we walked a ways and there on the ground was a bag with bread and milk in it. The milk was still cold. After seeing the look on his face like you can do that I said, “it was coincidence” and waited for the person that left it, to show up, but they never showed up. I enjoyed the meager meal that afternoon, but did not think it was an answered prayer until several weeks later.
One off my brothers had found God when he was in jail for drug related crimes and when I told him the story he explained the grace of God through Jesus Christ to me which made sense, he also gave me a bible. During that time I was working in an convenience store to get by and carried my new bible everywhere. One day some big unruly dude was calling me a bible thumper and I proceeded to thump him with a stick I kept under the counter for unruly jerks. I never got arrested for the assault but I lost my job for my over-enthusiastic behavior.
Over the next 13 years I continually asked myself what it meant to be a follower of Jesus Christ. The problem was I didn’t know the answer to that question. I started a new business and ended up in another city were some of my colleagues were Christians that asked me to attend their church. So I did. When I walked into the building the first time we were shown the way to the nursery so we could drop off our kids. My wife and I then entered the sanctuary and wham both of us could feel the presence of God there. It was overwhelming we both began to cry and I being a completely unemotional man. Man I didn’t know what to make of it. That is when I began to change from the inside out.
The change that was started was frustrating at first but slowly I began to embrace my new self. For instance I began to notice my anger was about not understanding what I was feeling at the moment. and that anger and fear are closely related and somewhat synonymous in nature. It was liberating to be able to express myself and be vulnerable to my own hurt feelings for the first time in my life. I sold my business joined a waste management company and transferred back home. We moved back home and I bought my first black leather bound bible which I began to read with a hunger, I had never experienced before. During the first months back we lived in an apartment that had a large refuse container for the residents.
During this time I remembered in my childhood I had an aunt that was a Christian and when we visited her she had some biblical scrolls on her dinner table that as children we used to fight over getting to read them at meal times. When I tried to find this product in the marketplace I couldn’t find it anywhere. Being of an entrepreneurial spirit I began to think I should create this product. One day as I was reading in my bible at 2 Peter chapter 1 some verses jumped out at me as to what it actually means to be a believer in Jesus Christ. Clarity at last! It talked about adding to your faith, virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
One problem I wasn’t a biblical scholar and had no idea what to do, I mean I barely knew about God and the bible. And didn’t people go to school for a long period of time to learn about Him. So I prayed and said “God if you want me to do this then you will have to physically provide all that I need to do it”. No sooner did I say amen that my wife walked in from outside and said “there is a huge box by the refuse bin that is full of all kinds of bibles and texts about God”. “Perhaps you should go see if you want it”. I went and looked. It had books on ancient Latin, Greek, Hebrew and English. Concordances, bibles and philosophical discussions about God. It looked like all the stuff someone learns about God in school. So since the year 2000 I have been studying and creating a product I call Holy Scrolls. It is a labour of love for I feel the hand of God in my labour daily. and when I complete the steps to brotherly kindness and love then I will release my work to the public. Perhaps it will be in my lifetime, perhaps not.
So if you think I am arguing with you, I assure you I am not. All I am doing is sharing the reasons why I believe in God. My evidence is personal and intangible but then so is the idea of money compounding or insurance yet nonetheless those two things are real. For without God I have no real purpose on this earth except to live and die. While I prefer to have something with which to live and die for. And I would die for my belief in Jesus Christ as did the first true believers of Jesus Christ. Debunk that my friend!
Also I must add that my bible teaches that telling one to go to hell is endangering to the teller of that same outcome. Since we are selfish beings, the offer of salvation appeals to us in our finite nature. Organized religion appeals to the lazy who would have someone else read their bible for them and then tell them what they are to believe and do. I prefer to be a free thinking believer of Jesus Christ the Saviour of all mankind. There is a beginning; we all agree to that. And everything else and I add in emphasis everything else; is conjecture from both camps.
May…
The Lord bless and keep you;
The Lord make His face shine upon you,
And be gracious to you;
The Lord lift up his countenance upon you,
And give you peace.
Hello Bruce,
Touching story. As I have mentioned before, I don’t doubt that you experienced something that you originally could not understand. Successive happenings led you to start thinking in a certain direction. You are not the first person who experienced something they believe is somewhat profound in nature, nor will you be the last. When your attempts to find answers and you seem to see a pattern, you formulate a hypothesis. People are naturally pattern seeking individuals; it is hard-wired into our being – a product of evolution.
When certain events start to seem to confirm certain beliefs, people naturally stop looking for alternative explanations. This again is nothing new. When you accept an expalnation you have formulated because of apparent confirmation by subsequent events, without exhausting all possible explanations, it constitutes a logical fallacy which is known as confirmation bias. I may not have explained it very well, but you can look it up.
You have still not explained why you feel the need to legitimize your belief in god to me (and maybe to others) by using the dishonest psuedo-rationalizations which Christian apologists are so captivated by. I think you know full well what I’m referring to, because you have used them extensively in your arguments. I used the term “concocted” by others, because you most certainly did not invent of them.
Once again, I strongly advise you to look up the meaning of the words “theory,” “conjecture,” and “hypothesis.” And please don’t go to the the AIG or Discovery Institute websites; you won’t find any truth there. Rather try the Panda’s Thumb, or TalkOrigins or TalkReason.
Also find the video by Michael Shermer titled ‘The Baloney Detection Kit.” These resources should be a good start. Alternatively, you can ignore me and continue to believe what you believe; it’s probably much easier…
Lenny
Our beliefs are different, our countries are different, our political systems are different, our daily routines are probably similar. I found you on the blogosphere and I put my two cents into your rant was all. You have made yourself public domain and that’s how we started talking. Do you wish to discontinue our conversations?
Hi Bruce,
Sure, I rant, and I welcome criticism to my rants as I pointed out in the introduction to this page above:
You are welcome to continue to cristicise, de-mean or make fun of me. I really don’t mind. If you want to continue debate, all I ask is that you provide logical, rational responses. Emotionally charged rhetoric, and unscientific or pseudo-scientific claims make no impression on me. I also take a dim view to being assaulted with stuff that has already been debunked or disproved or ridiculed before, as you may have noticed. I will respond with the scorn and sarcasm that such dialogue deserves. Please come up with new stuff.
Lenny
I am not making fun of you nor am I looking to demean you nor do I feel the need to make fun of you to make myself feel better. That’s what bully’s do. There are three types of bullying physical, mental and intellectual arrogance. No matter the type they are all wrong and always inappropriate ways of communication.
So called intellectuals like feeling superior to others and bully their opponent interlocutor by getting personal and attacking their belief system as inferior to their own. In my opinion that is lowly and a sad way to try and win at any debate. Perhaps we need some rules if we are to continue. Rules that we both agree on and lets see whose evidence is best and or explained best. Of course we need to take into account the bias of both sides and recognize when the refuted evidence is actually debunked and not just claimed as that status.
What do you think you and I debate this age old debate one point at a time and agree upon a set of rules by our design or an existing method. Then lets see what is real and what is fantasy. Also we need to agree on the text and the antiquity of text as confirmed reliable by its historical accuracy. So perhaps a pre-debate before the actual debate to agree upon what reference material would be used and not defer from that agreed upon material.
What do you think?
Bruce,
I’ll accept that I’m maybe arrogant and somewhat intellectual. But bullying? I’ll maybe agree with forceful.
You need to understand that I won’t make a statement that I cannot back up. And I respond appropriately to attempts to sell bullshit. Bullshit is easily recognisable once you get used to applying the Baloney Detection Kit.
The rules are simple: come up with new stuff and don’t try to sell it by appealing to emotion and other un-scientific means. I’m not buying, unless it’s absolutely convincing.
Joking is fine; as long as it is not an ad hominem attack on recognised scientists. You can make jokes about me, but not any recognized scientist. Attack their work, not their person.
You cannot use quotes from the bible to prove anything in and outside the bible. Accredited contemporary sources only, with references. Any material from AIG, The Templeton Foundation,The Discovery Institute, actually any apologist organization is invalid.
And please don’t try to tell me something is true, because you personally experienced it. It won’t fly. Provide corroborating evidence that has been subjected to scientific scrutiny.
The last and perhaps most important rule: if it has not been subjected to scientific scrutiny, it is less than useless.
Lenny
The baloney detection kit, hmm we do not have those here in Canada perhaps you can send me one, how much are they?
No need to come up with anything the debate has been going for 2000 years or more and we need not reinvent the wheel.
To discount the bible as inaccurate is absurd as that would be one of my references.
Here’s my two cents I suggest we read the reference material each other gives in its entirety then we debate from each position. But I will not agree unless you agree to the bible as one of my reference materials. And there must be a limit on the amount of reference materials i.e. x number of books = 5, to allow each of us to read all the material.
I believe that a case could be made from that number including a dictionary, thesaurus, encyclopedia, etc. I suggest http://dictionary.reference.com/
And of course point by point one subject at a time and I would allow you to go first unless you would like me to go first. Time limits also need to be in effect like reading of material before the first question and then answer daily as we have been.
If you consider this then instead of just skimming the material of the other and discounting it you would have read it all. It would give us a better way to attack the argument by knowing your opponent and their material.
What do you think?
Hi Bruce,
“If you consider this then instead of just skimming the material of the other and discounting it you would have read it all.”
You mean like you do: that’s why you don’t know where to find the Baloney Detection Kit.
“No need to come up with anything the debate has been going for 2000 years or more and we need not reinvent the wheel.”
Really now, believers have stagnated for two thousand years; they have not advanced the debate at all. Stuck in the past, that’s it.
“To discount the bible as inaccurate is absurd as that would be one of my references.”
I’m still waiting for the proof of accuracy.
“Here’s my two cents I suggest we read the reference material each other gives in its entirety then we debate from each position”
Nice try, but I ain’t reading that fairy tale again (bible). I have too many important scientific books that I still need to finish, and I do have a full time job building a broadcast network for the 2010 FIFA World Cup.
The rules have been set. I actually need to add another. No circular reasoning: eg. “the bible is the word of god because god says so.” Or, “it is true because it says so in the bible.”
Actually here are the common fallacies of rhetoric and logic:
Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric
1. Ad hominem – attacking the arguer and not the argument.
2. Argument from “authority”.
3. Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an “unfavourable” decision).
4. Appeal to ignorance (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).
5. Special pleading (typically referring to god’s will).
6. Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).
7. Observational selection (counting the hits and forgetting the misses).
8. Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes).
9. Misunderstanding the nature of statistics (President Eisenhower expressing astonishment and alarm on discovering that fully half of all Americans have below average intelligence!)
10. Inconsistency (e.g. military expenditures based on worst case scenarios but scientific projections on environmental dangers thriftily ignored because they are not “proved”).
11. Non sequitur – “it does not follow” – the logic falls down.
12. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc – “it happened after so it was caused by” – confusion of cause and effect.
13. Meaningless question (“what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?).
14. Excluded middle – considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the “other side” look worse than it really is).
15. Short-term v. long-term – a subset of excluded middle (“why pursue fundamental science when we have so huge a budget deficit?”).
16. Slippery slope – a subset of excluded middle – unwarranted extrapolation of the effects (give an inch and they will take a mile).
17. Confusion of correlation and causation.
18. Straw man – caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack..
19. Suppressed evidence or half-truths.
20. Weasel words – for example, use of euphemisms for war such as “police action” to get around limitations on Presidential powers. “An important art of politicians is to find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the public”
Lenny
Rules are not set for we need to agree on reference material for without that we have nothing to talk about. Only published material and limit of 5 published books each.
If you agree to that then we need only give our material and decide on who will go first. As I said already you may go first and we must not digress and stay point by point one subject at a time.
So within every debate I have ever been in there has always been a panel of peers judging the proceedings. I suggest three impartial persons that do not lean one way or the other.
What do you think?
Hi Bruce,
I don’t really care what material you use, as long as you stick the rules of critical thinking and avoid the logical fallacies listed above.
Another thing, I’m not getting suckered into reading any religious material you propose, be it 5 or 50. You can use it by all means and I will comment, based on the merits of the particular reference you use from the material. Like I said before, I have a full time job and I have plenty of scientific material to get through. You are free to make a statement and back it it up with whatever material you want. I will in tuen use whatever material I deem necessary to debate your assertion.
Your proposal of time limits therefore also does not suit me. I don’t do this for a living – for me it’s a labor of love and a matter of principle; I’m not interested in winning over any coverts to any non-religious cause. The debate should be allowed to take as much time as possible because this is also not a suitable medium for the type of debate you are proposing.
If you are in agreement, then I will create a separate post just for the purposes of debating a specific topic. I will work out the logistics.
Lenny
Sure thing buddy. What’s the post called, lets do it…
Hey Bruce,
It’s your show, you decide what the topic should be, and we’ll take it from there…
Just remember the rules about logical fallacies: it applies to the topic too.
Lenny
Thought you were gonna start new thread?
Lets call it the “Lenny and M.A.C. Show” and send me the link (you can find my email by clicking on my name). I’ll be in and out of the studio for the next couple of months recording my new project “Bad Christian” but can definitely work a good debate into my schedule. I also have a day job too btw.
Lets make the first topic “Is There a God?”
And I guess I’ll go first?
Hey Lenny,
Might I ask what kinds of questions you asked your priests or religious teachers that they couldn’t answer rationally or satisfactorily? I’m on a quest to poke holes in what I believe. If I can’t find the answers then I need to really rethink on some things.haha
On another note, I like your pictures and I was wondering if you were going upload some more soon.:)
Also, you give a brief description about your past experiences with religion, but what’s your life like now? Do you have hopes and dreams? Anything big you’d like to accomplish? Places you want to visit? Favorite food and music? What’s your career or one that you want to have? From what I’ve read from your other posts, you seem to really enjoy life.
Hello again Amanda,
I’m not sure which religion you follow, if any. I used to follow the Hindu religion which has some of the strangest rituals. For instance, I asked the priests why they would walk around a temple for a certain number of times on different holy days, and they could not give a logical answer. Also, why wearing black clothes to religious festivals was taboo. There were many others such as why do people fast, make sacrificial offerings etc. The answers were always caged in superstition. The same applies to the rituals and practices of other religions as well.
As far as the photographs are concerned, I have far too many and am always in a dilemma over which ones to choose. I will put up a few more at some stage…soon.
My life has changed quite dramatically since I started pacticing critical thinking. I fear very little, because fear is based on superstition – this means I enjoy much more freedom than I did before. I have taken up new hobbies such as photography, videography, and blogging. I now read scientific literature voraciously – you see I had stopped reading for many years before this. I have become much more involved in charity work than before. I quit smoking… overnight. I want to teach…and learn.
I am enjoying my job much more than I ever did, as I’ve dicovered a new creativity that I never had before. I was given the opportunity to, and have been working for the last few years on the biggest project in my career – building the Broadcast and IT&T network for the FIFA Soccer World Cup to be held in South Africa in 2010.
I love to travel; I’ve been to Canada, the USA, France. My dream is to still visit places like Machu Pichu, Egypt, Tibet, Japan, Alaska (Arctic Circle, some parts of Europe. I am fascinated with ancient civilizations.
There are some minor consequences: since I gave up religion, I have become estranged from friends who were once very close. But, I have grown closer to my own immediate family. I have made new atheist friends though.
Enough of blowing my own trumpet. If you’re really serious about “poking holes in your beliefs” then I wish you well. You will find out things that are not always pleasant and most times, downright unpalatable. The truth can be very ugly. But highly satisfying when you discover it. Welcome to the world of learning…