Religious Hoax e-Mails – People Who Mocked God

We all receive them. The claims are invariably too fantastic to be true. Anyone with half a brain will see right through them, and yet recipients of these mails, keep forwarding them on. They usually contain some sort of promise of good luck or a veiled threat of misfortune should you not “forward on to 10 persons. I normally have a good laugh while reading, and then delete.

I received one the other day, the contents of which was really menacing, and which leads me to believe that the purveyors of religious filth are becoming really desperate to maintain this delusional thinking and are prepared to stoop really, really low to achieve this. These religious cretins have resorted to misquoting prominent persons, quoting out of context, twisting quotes to suit the occasion, disingenuously using statistics and even propagating blatant lies. I have even been told by some that lying for God is OK.

See what you make of this before reading my responses below (for the sake of utilizing space optimally, I have copied and pasted the contents of the mail without the eye-catching font size, paragraphing, color scheme and other formatting):

DID YOU KNOW THESE FACTS? I SURE DIDN’T TILL NOW
Death is certain but the
Bible speaks about untimely death!
Make a personal reflection about
this…..
Very interesting, read until the end…..
It is written in the
Bible (Galatians 6:7):
‘Be not deceived; God is not mocked:
for
whatsoever a man sow, that shall he also reap.
Here are some men and women
who mocked God :

John Lennon (Singer):
Some years before, during his interview with
an American Magazine, he said:
‘Christianity will end, it will disappear. I
do not have to argue about that. I am certain. Jesus was OK, but his subjects
were too simple, today we are more famous than Him’ (1966).
Lennon, after
saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, was shot six times.

Tancredo Neves (President of Brazil ):
During the
Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even
God would remove him from Presidency.
Sure he got the votes, but he got sick
a day before being made President, then he died.

Cazuza (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet):
During A show in Canecio ( Rio de Janeiro ), while smoking his cigarette, he
puffed out some smoke into the air and said:’God, that’s for you.’
He died
at the age of 32 of LUNG CANCER in a horrible manner.

The man who built the Titanic
After the construction of
Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be. With an ironic tone
he said: ‘Not even God can sink it’
The result: I think you all know what
happened to the Titanic

Marilyn Monroe (Actress)
She was visited by Billy Graham
during a presentation of a show. He said the Spirit of God had sent him to
preach to her. After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said: ‘I don’t
need your Jesus’.
A week later, she was found dead in her
apartment

Bon Scott (Singer)
The ex-vocalist of the AC/DC. On one of
his 1979 songs he sang: ‘Don’t stop me; I’m going down all the way, down the
highway to hell’.
On the 19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he
had been choked by his own vomit.

Campinas (IN 2005)
In Campinas , Brazil a group of friends,
drunk, went to pick up a friend…..
The mother accompanied her to the car
and was so worried about the drunkenness of her friends and she said to the
daughter holding her hand, who was already seated in the car: ‘My Daughter, Go
With God And May He Protect You. She responded: ‘Only If He (God) Travels In The
Trunk, Cause Inside Here…..It’s Already Full ‘
Hours later, news came by
that they had been involved in a fatal accident, everyone had died, the car
could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the
trunk was intact. The police said there was no way the trunk could have remained
intact. To their surprise, inside the trunk was a crate of eggs, none was
broken

Christine Hewitt (Jamaican Journalist and entertainer) said the
Bible (Word of God) was the worst book ever written. In June 2006 she was found
burnt beyond recognition in her motor vehicle.

Many more important people have forgotten that there is no other name
that was given so much authority as the name of Jesus. Many have died, but only
Jesus died and rose again, and he is still alive.

‘Jesus’

PS: If it was a joke, you would have sent it to everyone. So are
you going to have courage to send this?.
I have done my part, Jesus said ‘If
you are embarrassed about me, I will also be embarrassed about you before my
father.’

You are my 8 in 8 seconds. I am not breaking this. No
way!
I’M TOLD THIS WORKS!!!!! Bishop T.D. Jakes ‘8 Second Prayer.’ Just
repeat this prayer and see how God moves!!
‘Lord, I love you and I need you,
come into my heart, and bless me, my family, my home, and my friends, in Jesus’
name. Amen.’
Pass this message to 8 people {EXCEPT YOU AND ME}.You will
receive a miracle tomorrow. I Hope that you don’t ignore and let God bless you.

The Real Facts
The very first line is a lie, because what follows is anything but the facts.
Death is always untimely, period. I’ve never heard any dead person saying his or her death was timely. An observer however may give his/her opinion about the timeliness.
Here is what John Lennon really said: “Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn’t argue with that; I’m right and I will be proved right. We’re more popular than Jesus now; I don’t know which will go first — rock and roll or Christianity. Jesus was all right, but his disciples were thick and ordinary. It’s them twisting it that ruins it for me.” There is nothing wrong with this analysis by Lennon, and as one poster on Snopes.com (the urban myths site) so rightfully pointed out, at the time Lennon made this comment, you could not find any massive throngs of people, screaming in excitement, queuing up for hours to get into church. Incidentally, why did this vindictive God take 14 years to punish Lennon for making the quote in 1966? Maybe he had his hands full punishing all the other blasphemers in the world, and could only get around to Lennon in 1980. The truth is, Lennon achieved greatness before he died and his memory lives on – what more can you ask from life?
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that Tancredo Neves did make the statement about God as claimed. And yes, he did become ill a day before his inauguration as President and died about a month later from abdominal complications. His death was followed by an outpouring of grief from the citizens of Brazil who regarded him as a liberator from the previous dictatorial regimes. In honour of Tancredo Neves, he is listed as an official President of Brazil although he never took office, and the Tancredo Neves International Airport in Belo Horizonte is named after him. He died, but his memory and honour lives on. This guy had more honour than any imaginary vindictive God. The truth is, Neves achieved greatness before he died and his memory lives on – what more can you ask from life?
Let’s assume for the sake of argument that Cazuza did make the statement about God as claimed. Yes, Cazuza (real name Agenor Miranda Araujo Neto) was openly bisexual and died from an AIDS related illness at the age of 32. Cazuza’s honesty about his AIDS infection helped to change public perceptions about the disease. He is considered as a leading example of Brazilian Rock Music and is still an inspiration to latter day artists. Yet again, an honourable and revered person whose memory lives on. Yep, he’s still smoking!!! And all ye faithful can put that in your pipes and smoke it. The truth is, Cazuza achieved greatness before he died and his memory lives on – what more can you ask from life?
The man who was responsible for building the Titanic probably did not say “Not even God can sink it,” but lets assume he did. So to punish him, this vindictive God causes the ship to sink, resulting in the deaths of more than 1500 people, including the shipbuilder, Thomas Andrews. Now why do you believe in this monster again? At the time, the Titanic was a marvel of engineering. Thomas Andrews achieved greatness before he died and his memory lives on – what more can you ask from life?
So what if Marilyn Monroe told Billy Graham she did not need his Jesus? Any intelligent person who understood that religion is a drug would have said as much. Why would she want any more drugs? Those she was already hooked on were adequate and so the Jesus-drug was not necessary. Anyway by this time, Monroe had already achieved greatness and will forever be remembered – what more can you ask from life?
Rock stars such as Bon Scott of AC/DC are artists who make use of poetic lyrics to express themselves. To say that he actually meant literally that he was “going down the highway to hell” is rather disingenuous. Claims of death by choking in his own vomit are conspiracy theories. Scott, an asthmatic, actually died of alcohol poisoning, while sleeping in a car, after a night of heavy drinking. By this time, Scott had already achieved greatness and his memory lives on. His grave in Australia is not only the most visited there, but is listed as a heritage site. Has anyone visited Jesus grave recently?
The alleged Campinas accident is the stuff of urban legend. Notice that no names or dates are provided to verify the incident. But at least we now know that the safest place to store eggs, is in the trunk of a car.
Christine Hewitt was absolutely correct to say that the bible was the worst book ever written. The kind of filth portrayed in the bible as the word of some supernatural power that has dominion over us all, cannot be regarded as good by any intelligent, rational, thinking person. Hewitt was probably killed by some religious maniac, but we will never know. At the time of her death she had already achieved prominence in society and will be forever remembered for the good work she did.
In the end, the authors of this hate-mail have merely proven that their imaginary God is not only conceited and vengeful, but downright incompetent as well. This imaginary murderer has failed dismally to snuff out the greatness of those who have been perceived to have rejected and mocked him.

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471 thoughts on “Religious Hoax e-Mails – People Who Mocked God

  1. I stumbled on this. I was just having a conversation with a co-worker about this the other day. Good read. Thanks for shareing.

    • This email and one’s similar are the reason why I no longer refer to myself a “christian”.., choosing rather to refer to myself as a “believer” in the one true God ~ Jehovah. I am a man of strong faith, a fervent believer in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and a person who stands fast on the Word of God… And my bible says: “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 5:7-9

      God didn’t use lies and deception, hate mongering and fear tactics as a precursor to salvation. My bible says that He loved all of us “sinners” so much that He sent His one and only Son as an atonement for our sins, so we, as sinners, could have a direct connection back to the Father. My bible also says, ”Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.” 1 John 4:19-21 Well, who are my brothers and sisters…, “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Romans 3:22-24 God didn’t send His only Son for the select few “holier than thou” religious leaders of the time; He send Jesus for all us sinners, for all His beloved creation.

      Jesus mandate to His followers is so simple, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all of your soul, and with all of your mind…, And love your brother as yourself.., all the other commandments hinge on the basic principles of love. If the authors of this filth had instead taken the time to minister to lost instead of condemning them; maybe our families, our country, our world wouldn’t be in the utter godless state that it is in. If they had taken the time to sit down and digest the Word they’d know that God is more likely to use the condemned, horrible, ungodly people of this world to demonstrate His ultimate love for His creation…, and after accepting Christ, these people often go on to be the most powerful witnesses for Christ. Don’t believe me, don’t take my word for it, dust-off that Bible…, open it up, and after He (God) has humbled you and brought the enlightenment of love and truth into your lives…., If it were me, I would prostrate myself on the floor, cry my eyes out, and beg God for forgiveness.

      As believers; God calls us to love the sinners of this world…, not persecute them. God also mandates that we hold our brother and sister in the Lord accountable for their actions; Iron sharpens Iron. For me to sit back and allow this email to keep circulating without calling into account the godlessness of it would be an injustice to the Lord that loved me even when I utterly despised Him; who called me son even when I was lost; who supped with me even when my own family, friends, and loved ones had written me off and given up hope. Am I perfect…, not by any stretch of the imagination; everyday day my spirit wars against my flesh. But the fact that I recognize this and I’m willing to make a conscious effort to try to become more like Christ daily through prayer and seeking forgiveness when I fall short of God’s glory is the only reason I’m not just a fading memory today. All praise to God!!!

      If I were to determine my relationship with God based on what I’ve seen and heard through some of His “followers”…, I would have cursed God, Jesus, and everyone associated with christianity a long time ago. I’ve experienced backbiting, lying, cheating, deception, hypocrisy, jealousy, strive…, to name a few in the last 11 years since asking Jesus to be my Lord and Savior; and I didn’t experience these horrible things at the hands of the “ungodly” folks of this world…, these things happened to me by the very people who claim to be my brothers and sisters in Christ.

      If we as believers spent half as much time actually demonstrating God’s love instead of distributing garbage like this…, we’d still have prayer and creationism in our schools and not have to fear for our children’s safety while there. We would still be able to proudly display the 10 commandments in our state and federal buildings. Maybe our society wouldn’t be so devastated by ever skyrocketing teen pregnancies, suicides, drug addition, demoralizing and destructive behavior. This isn’t just a problem with the “ungodly” in our society…, this is becoming more and more a christian problem as well. And we are so much better than everyone else? What a joke!

      If you are a follower of Christ and still believe in perpetuating emails like this, I’ll leave you with His word:

      15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

      21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

      24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” Matthew 7:15-27

      • Hi Scott,

        A pretty long winded sermon… that says absolutely nothing I haven’t heard before. Nearly two thousand years of preaching has achieved the same result – zero.

        You seriously need to love yourself a little more… and your precious god a little less.

        • If, I choose to love a God that you say does not exist, or if I choose to love myself…even, I daresay, if I should love both God and myself and you, and Marilyn, and Cazuza, and abortionists, and politicians, and my lesbian and gay brothers, and white folks and black folks, and this whole crazy world, should it hurt you?

          The trouble is that there will always be conflict in the world. I received that email, and I am a Christian, but I do not have to like it. I do not think it explains God, or life, or you or me or anything….my own child tells me she would rather sit down and have a good conversation about faith than 100 emails to “send to 9 others.” When I got the email, I too went to research and came across this site.

          But, Christianity has always been about Jesus Christ. The world loves God in whoever they choose to call Him, or at least loves to thank Him (think academy awards, etc.), but it is Jesus Christ that makes the difference. He said:”no man cometh to the Father except my Me”. The whole “God story” encompasses Man, Humanity, Sin, and Redemption. If to be redeemed, if be brought back to a place of wholeness, to not be under bondage to appetites, sin, or the pride of life, is wrong, or bad, or somehow evil…if it is filth (and make no mistake religion, which is totally anti-God is filth, for it involves self righteousness-true discipleship is relationship) than what, on earth, is evil?

          I have come to understand that not believing in the God of the Bible does not make Him any less real than me not believing in Gravity because I have not read Isaac Newton. Christianity is not a joke, or a belief of namby-pamby, weak kneed deluded cowards, which, for some reason, people think Christians are. It is a life of opposition, and a truly un-human-like mandate to love others even when they revile you and hate you.

          One is free to choose God, or free not to. One is also free to accept or reject a lie. However, it is wise to know the difference. I have never heard anyone say what the Bible says about Man is a lie; we prove ourselves over and over to be caught in a battle of good and evil

          • Hi Stephanie,

            The whole god story is a lie. Redemption? From what? It is not about humanity. It is about inhumanity, self hatred, poor self esteem.

            I have come to understand that no matter how many people believe in the bible, it will still not make it true. I have come to understand that it is an insult to the billions of others who swear by other religious books, to insist that your’s is the true or real one. Better to accept that you’re all wrong, because you all most certainly aren’t right.

            • Len…what or who do you believe in? One thing that I am sure of is that there is One who made the heavens and the earth and everything in it. I call Him God, He is Everything, Unquestionable, one with Him is majority. He doesn’t need you neither does He need me or anyone else to prove Himself true. I am privileged to be on His list.
              I pray that you experience His might through Christ our Lord….Amen

              • Belief is a crazy animal. If I have to believe in something, then it wold have to be verifiable evidence. In other words, I TRUST the scientific method only.

                Here’s something from author Terry Pratchett: “The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they’ve found it.”

            • lennymaysay:
              It is well said: “God created man in His image and man returned the favor.”
              The Creator is only only one, but men invented thousands of other religions and gods, because the Creator just was not “good enough” to them, like He is not good enough to you. But the Creator will hold everyone responsible for breaking His Law which He gave us, e.g. “to Love your Creator with all you have and love your neighbor as yourself.” The whole law is derived from these two commandments. If you love God, you will do what He says. If you love your neighbor, you will not harm him and you don’t need a long list of “dont’s.”
              We turned love into cheap sex, hypocrisy and narcisistic self-love. Look around how we have “improved” God’s creation.
              Many people are being so insane that they hate Christians for trying to pull them out of a burning house. Yes, even your house is on fire, so to speak. The Bible warns us that anyone who dies in their sins, will be sentenced into God’s jail – a perfect jail, (God makes everything perfect, it’s men who break things). In that jail there is maximum suffering and it never ends. Perfect jail. But the only people who will end up there are people who managed to fight God off in all His attempts to save them from this judgment, even dying for them on the cross. What will you tell your Creator on the Judgment day? I am not trying to scare you, but wake you up, THINK. Take the Bible, if you don’t believe me. And say, like I (former atehist) once did: God, I was taught that you do not exist, but if you do, reveal yourself to me, please.” If you do it in humility, which is befitting (for a sinful man to adress holy God in humility), He will answer that prayer. And you will see that you’ve believed the wrong story. It is the other way around. It is not Christians, who are crazy (though there are crazy people who THINK they are Christians but they are not), it is people who are fighting off their loving Creator, who loves His creation and wants to save them from His righteous judgment. Because even if He loves you, He will have to judge you JUSTLY. The Holy God can’t sweep things under the rug. Now is the time, when God is offering Mercy. Confess your sins to Him, turn away from them and accept the FREE GIFT of salvation from Jesus Christ, who paind for your and mine sins with His own blood. He paid for you, but it won’t help you, unless you receive this gift.
              If I bought an i-pod for you, if would be paid for, but unless you receive it as a gift from me, yoiu will not have it. If you say, “I don’t want that i-pod you bought for me,” you won’t have it. So it is with salvation Christ is offering to you. Your sins have been paid for, but unless you receive that gift SINCERELY, you won’t have it and you are, sorry to say this, still on the path to hell. And you can’t SINCERELY receive the gift of your salvation from Christ, unless you come to a conviciton that you don’t want to continue in your sins, which nailed Christ to the cross.

              Soon will come the time when the offer is closed and the judgment on the hardened, rebellious people, decieved by the Deceiver, will come.
              You don’t have to do the devil’s bidding. Check out God’s Word (The Bible) with a humbe attitude and you will see.
              Acts 17:30. 3:16, John 3:16, 1 Cor 15:3-4, Rev ch. 19-20….
              It takes more faith not to believe in God….
              God have mercy on you,
              Milan

              • Hi Milan,

                So this Creator created us in his image to “love him with all we have?” Kinda narcissistic, don’t you THINK. He also created the Devil to tempt us? Not in his image I suppose? Didn’t he know the Devil would tempt us? So much for omniscience.

                And this loving God created the “perfect jail” to punish his detractors? Seeems like a lot of trouble for one guy/gal/thing to go to get some love.

                Thanks for the i-Pod. But no thanks. I’ll take my chances with science and skepticism.

                • Hi, Lenny,
                  the underlying issue is, whether you want to find out what is the truth, or whether you want to look for excuses not to accept the Truth. The truth is that every person is separated from God by his or her sins and is on the way to hell. Christ paid for your and mine sins (and everyone elses) on the cross, and is offering you THE GIFT of salvation – meaning forgiveness of your sins and also eternal inheritance in His Kingdom. First step is to swallow one’s pride, turn away from you sins, which nailed Christ to the cross and ask Him to save you. That’s the most important truth of all. And the best investment you could ever make.

                  The REAL science actually speaks in favor of Creation and it does directly reveal that THEORY of evolution is just it – a THEORY, which runs contrary to science and sound reason. Even the leading evolutionary proponents declared that nowadays it takes MORE FAITH THAN EVER to continue to believe in their THEORY. Why they said it – because science keeps on revealing that their theory is wrong.
                  “The fool says in his heart, there is no God.” That’s what the LIVING God said. He also said: “Darwin is dead.”
                  Most people, who refuse to believe in God actually try to run from God, because in their sub-conscious mind, they know He will judge them for their sins. God cannot avoid judging our sins, because He is righteous. But He oferred men forgiveness – and that works only in one way. It is called the Gospel of Christ – the Good News.
                  Running away from God is foolish, because “you can run, but you can’t hide.” The Good News is that God is offering everyone AMNESTY – a gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, who paid for everyones sins with His blood. And pardon my expression – stupid, proudful people don’t want to receive it. I used to be one of them. But when you die, then it will be too late. And if I could have given up my stupid pride, throw away my excuses and RECEIVE God’s gift of Salvation, so can you – if you want to. Do not make excuses because of other stupid people, even those, who THINK they are Christians, while they are just religious nuts.
                  Real Christian is not a religious nut. God wants us to use our brain. Real Christianity is not contrary to science. Real science actually keeps revealing, how God made it all. God wants us to find out how He made it – it should lead us to more awe and respect of Him. Only a base idiot can’t get past the idea what kind of God wants us to adore Him. It is God who is so awesome, that you can’t not adore Him – ONCE YOU GET TO KNOW HIM. Adoring God is not narcistic of Him, it is our proper response. This requires spiritual thinking, not the humanistic self-centered thinking.
                  Yes, it takes A STEP of faith at the beginning, when a person comes to God. But it is a REASONABLE FAITH, based on what God said. It is not a blind faith, which is required by all the man-made religions. Once that step of faith is made, God reveals Himself to every such person and then you KNOW God exists, because you moved from knowing ABOUT God to KNOWING Him personally. But you’ve got to humble yourself to make that first step of faith, nobody can do it for you.

                  And back to your UNFAIR objection about narcissism – seems like you have intentionally overllooked half of what was said and twisted the rest. I did not say that God created us to love Him, but that God COMMANDED US certain things, which can be summed up in two main things – Love God and your neighbor – not with a cheap love, but unselfish love. One problem is that nowadays so many people are themselves so narcistic, they got no clue what unselfish love looks like. Thus they are too selfish to fulfill those two commandments and untill they get rid of their humanistic self-centeredness, they are on the way to hell for sure.

                  Those, who MEET God and get to know Him, can’t but love Him. He is so awesome, that a spontaineous response of every person, who was given AMNESTY, and thus KNOWS God, is that of immense gratitude and love.
                  To come to grip with such concepts, you’ve got to swallow you intellectual pride. It is foolish for anyone to think they can outsmart God. If you could, you would be God. It is just as foolish to claim there is no God – here is a thought: How much does mankind know about the universe? The standard answer is about one percent. Even if it was ten percent, no human knows what’s in the remaining 90 percent of the universe. Thus insisting that there is no God is revealing one’s foolishness and ignorance.

                  Concerning your objection about the devil – God did not create the devil. You might do well to read the Bible thoroughly before you try to debate against it.
                  God created Lucifer, a very powerful and beautiful angel, who was very close to God. But Lucifer became proudful. Blinded by pride he started thinking he could unthrone God and himself become God. Lucifer was created perfect, but because he had a free will, like we do, he chose to corrupt himself. Thus he became the devil, God’s adversary. He was thrown out of the third heaven, he was sentenced to eternity in hell, but because we got free will, God did not throw him there yet. He gave people an alternative. You dont’ have to worship God, if you don’t want to. A problem you have is that the only other alternative is to worship the devil. The devil has made quite a progress today in deceviving more and more people into thinking that the devil is good and God is bad. Evil heart thus believes evil things. Either way, rejecting God equals receiving the devil. Even Bob Dylan figured it out in one of his songs: “… It may be the Lord, it may be the devil, but you’ve got to serve somebody…” You’re thinking you’re free if you don’t “submit to religion.” Don’t submit to religion, that is man-made bull, but submit to your Creator, while you can. Rejecting your Creator makes you actually a slave to the devil, who has deceived you, so that you don’t realize what you are actually doing to yourself. Without God you have only one freedom – to FREELY became a slave of sin, consiquently the slave of the devil. Even when you are “freely” resisting and blaspheming God, in the name of science or whatever, you are serving the devil and doing what he wants – resisting your Creator who is offering you a deliverance from this slavery. It is such a devilish strategy, that you don’t even realize that while you think you are free, you are a slave of the devil. Devil is smart, but God is smarter!

                  Concerning hell – God did not create it for people, but for the devil and the fallen angels (demons). People who end up in hell are all those, who followed the devil there – whether knowingly, or being deceived by him.

                  Many scientists of past centuries were actually Christians, e.g. Isaac Newton and many others. But the Bible predicted “falling away from the truth” at the end of the age, and that’s what is going on today. As more and more people turned their back on God, they got what they wanted – God-free life. That created a vacuum, which is being filled up by the devil – and the devil is trying to keep people away from the truth. God allows it for now, because that’s what many have chosen and God respects men’s free will which He gave us. Many people will end up in hell, because God respected their choice. The window of opportunity is closing, the judgment is coming.

                  You can continue to make fun of all this, or get serious. The choice is yours and also it is your responsibility for dying in your sins, if you don’t repent. The hell is real, and I am not ashamed to warn you about it. Only an idiot resists God who wants to save him from certain hell. If you end up there, you yourself, in agony, will continue calling yourself an idiot – every minute – for eternity. Is it worth it to you?
                  God bless,
                  Milan

                  http://www.wayofthemaster.com/IDvsEvol.shtml

                  http://www.livingwaters.com
                  http://twft.com
                  https://answersingenesis.org
                  http://creationtoday.org

                • Milan

                  Your arguments are riddled with logical fallacies. If you don’t know what a logical fallacy is, please refrain from embarrasing yourself any further by trying to argue your stance.

                  In fact, let me make it easy for you.

                  I worship neither your imaginary god nor your imaginary devil. If it will make you happy, I’ll gladly be an “idiot,” but I won’t acccept any of your assertions without verifiable proof. When you do find testable proof, please come back. Happy hunting…

                • Lenny, replying to ennymaysay
                  on March 10, 2015 at 7:30 pm said:, as there was no reply button at your last comment.
                  1. Of course I know what is a logical fallacy. I have seen them in your statements, like God created the devil to tempt us. But as I explained, God did not create the devil. You have not show me where I did commit a logical fallacy, just made an accusation.
                  You have already made it easy for me. You don’t know the science, nor the Bible very well. Just making ungrounded excuses. You made a choice. God respects that, but too bad for you.
                  God bless,
                  Milan

                • Milan,

                  You may know what a logical fallacy is, but you seem quite comfortable using them pretty frequently. Anyway, good luck with finding proof for all the assertions you make.

          • I declare that Stephanie & others following her posts are not true to themselves. If they were true to themselves and Jesus, they would pick up a Bible & read it. They have never done so. They have not read it starting from Genesis. They deceive themselves,… that just because they proclaim to be believers, others & & God will be fooled.. Have they come to admission that Eve had sexual relations with Cain, to be fruitful & multiply? Do they believe that Noah had relations with his daughters for the same purpose? And that their children had sexual relations with each other to be fruitful & multiply: ….after all, there was no one else existing on earth in all the aforementioned cases. No, they have not! Do they believe Joshua stopped the sun from revolving around the earth. No they don’t. They are fake, false & self deceptive. They are not true Christians as they proclaim. They pick & choose quotes from the Bible to suit themselves. These are not the characteristics of honest people. Despite what they write in these posts.
            They wiggle & worm & twist & with false explanations for all the horrible events that exist in the Bibleturn to deceive you, themselves & others.They are the true sinners. Heaven will not be their reward.

        • all this reading means nothing to me i still believe in God,questions as to whether God exisist or not?don’t matter to me,because they do nothing to change my faith in God,if u don’t wona believe thts on u,but don’t try to pull others into believe in ur rather false ideas.

          • Hi Kulaishi,

            If you’re so keen on remaining chained to ignorance, that’s cool with me. I’ll just leave you with this:

            Men become civilized, not in proportion to their willingness to believe, but in proportion to their readiness to doubt – H L Mencken

        • The Bible is the most popular book on the planet. It is sad that you have seen no results from the Word of God. I have witnessed the healing of others, just by calling on ‘Jesus’. To tell someone to love their God less is not only sad but it says alot about you. At the end of the day, please have respect for the Faith of others!

          • Hi Simone,

            The popularity of something cannot be used as a measure of its efficacy or truthfullness. Using your yardstick, you could substitute many other things such as TV shows and make wild claims about them too. Example, cigarettes are popular around the world, but would you advocate that they become a staple passtime for everyone, in spite of the damning evidence that they cause cancer?

            My experience has been that the bible is the most popular un-read book of all time, because a true reading of it is bound to cause sincere disbelief.

        • Hey buddy where do you get zero from? Preaching has transformed many in this world from hopeless beings to hopeful people and they live to tell ttheir testimonies. I am one of those nagating your assertion that preaching has achieved nothing.

          • Hey Gitau,

            Not sure what you mean by “where do you get zero from.” If it’s the history of “zero” you’re looking for, perhaps Google can help you. As for preaching, well…

            As many people as have been transformed into “hopeful people,” many more have been transformed into wretches who have wreaked death and destruction upon the world through the centuries. Preaching has given way to proselytizing and wholesale selling of religious dogma. But very profitable I must say…

            • Where did you get your zero when you said “preaching for 2000 years had come to the same result = 0” or something like that….thoooo

              • Hi Bogdan,

                I get it now. You’re referring to a comment I made some time ago: “A pretty long winded sermon… that says absolutely nothing I haven’t heard before. Nearly two thousand years of preaching has achieved the same result – zero.”

                It was a play on words to emphasise that two thousand years of preaching had achieved pretty much the same result as that commenter’s sermon on me. Which is about as close to zero as you can get. Zip, Nada, nothing. Get it?

            • lennymaysay is such a bum!! haha a laughing stock…
              zero ? cant u even prove your points a little more clearly!!

        • May god bless you lennymaysay……. I just consider you a sheep who has gone away from his shepherd. You will come back and give your testimony. I believe in christ and so do i believe what i have written.

        • You have no idea. You need to start reading for yourself, instead of hearing from someone else. i don’t why I even red all of that article, but I guess I wanted to read for myself, and not someone telling me. I am not saying all these things people put out there is the way, about ” do this and you will receive this” or ” pass this to 10 people and you will receive a miracle in two minutes” is how my God works, but miracle are real and God is real. Be bless.

      • i agree with you Scott…we christians have lost sight of what is really important,the greatest thing in life…which is Love…when we have this Love in our hearts and live it out that is when we potray Christ…sometimes its hard,you know wen we meet a person who has commited a hideous crime we fail to see Christ in dat person..we are so fast in judging…God is nt a vindictive,monstrous God…He is ever loving…waiting for us to turn to Him,He’s always there.
        So let us all spread the goodnews of God’s love.

      • Amen.. GOD IS STILL GOD AND THIS WILL NEVER CHANGE, WHETHER OR NOT WE CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, JUST LIKE OXYGEN CANT SEIZE TO EXIST JUST BECAUSE WE MIGHT NOT BELIEVE, SO LET US REPENT AND LIVE RIGHT

    • The above post disputing the truth is by an atheist, and the reactions obviously are from same tribe, so what can you expect? They can deny and refuse the justice of God, but the truth is the truth and no one can ever change that. Just because the people described continue to be idolized doesn’t mean that the truth of their behavior and the consequences are eradicated.

        • you have not experieanced this great Jesus for he saved my soul from sin and made me whole with in john 3;5 you must born of the water and the spirit he CAN NOT enter into the kingdom of heaven, Acts 2;38 repent and be baptized in Jesus name to remove your sins and you shall recieve the Holy Ghost i have3 expereienced this for myself you and know one else can take that away from me so untill you have tryed him you are no athourity this matter the truth is quantifiable and verifiable look up your local United Pentecostal Church and see for your self then make your comments after your experience Thank you

          • Hi Brian,

            Have you considered that if you need a dubious supernatural entity to save you from sin, that maybe you’re just a weak-willed person who can’t do stuff on his own steam. What is sin anyway? If you asked 100 people what they think sin is, you’ll probably get 80 different answers. Subjective morality is a dangerous thing.

            And oh, I did try religion – not your particular variety – but I found nothing there that I liked… and I’m doing just fine without it, thank you.

    • Either u believe d real bible truth, it is ur own decision, but the truth is d truth. Hope u wont die before u die that God is love and he sent Jesus christ for us and that eternal life is through him and by him

  2. So the email presents distorted information…
    God is the Creator. He is just, not vengeful. He gave mankind free will – which is too often misused.
    You comments give the impression that your mind is closed to God. You cannot know God until you seek Him, just as you cannot experience deep water supporting you until you get into it.
    You might be interested to read what other people have said – http://www.quotelady.com/subjects/christianity.html

    • 2 good samaritans went to heaven by drowning.in Florida this week while trying to save a child and a couple from drowning (2 seoarate incidents) .

  3. i had just got his email today and upon reading it, i was thinking are any of these true, who found out this info, why cant i actually find any of this info out. so being the regular person i did pass it on, but with hesitation. now i do believe in god, with out hope and faith what is there to live for, but i really dont believe everything that is in the bible. how many times has it been re-written, who re-write it and why? believe in your own faith and what you feel and most people can get through any situation.
    **for the person who said that he is closed minded, he is entitled to his opinions and beliefs, people like you who try so hard to persue, actually make people pull away. if someone pulls your arm and you dont want them too, what does a normal person due, pull away, keep that in mind.

    • I found your post interesting. There is a great book you ought to check out. It is called “More Than a Carpenter” The Bible is the most accurate ancient literature pieces in the world. We have thousands of copies that are thousands of years old and there is less than 2% difference in all these copies. Check it out, I think you would find it very interesting. It was written by a guy who was an athiest and decided to research out and disprove the Bible’s accuracy and the stories of Jesus and ended up proving the opposite to himself.

      • Hi Dave,

        Since you did not mention an author, I’ll assume it’s Joslin McDowell.

        You’re not the first person who has been impressed with a certain Christian apologist and convinced that he’s found the truth. And you’re not the first person who has requested that I read the arguments from the author whose convinced him/her. I have read some of the books recommended and sadly I still come to the same conclusion: poor apologist logic.

        More than a Carpenter was written around 1977, and if the skeptical world was convinced of its veracity, all further books trying to convince them of the supposed truth of its claims, would have been totally unecessary. But….we have had hundreds, perhaps thousand more books making the same claims since 1977, and us Skeptics are still not convinced. Why?

        Rather than waste energy and time reading your suggestion, I’ve done just a little research on your author and book and the results confirm my suspicions: just another lazy apologist who has done just about enough to convince himself and fellow believers only.

        Here’s just one review I found which you should read [if you’re really interested in the truth off course]: Review of More Than a Carpenter

        If you’re looking for something to just reassure yourself that you’ve made the right choice of religion, and that faith is all that’s necessary, then why not read his other books too: Evidence That Demands a Verdict, A Ready Defense and Right from Wrong. It’ll make you happy, but none the wiser…

  4. I got that same email today and was pretty disgusted. I am a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ and when I read about people propagating the idea that God senselessly kills people who mock him it upsets me. This is not only taking these people’s quotes out of context but also the Bible verse that it bases its claims on. This kind of BS is largely responsible for the negative connotations that go along with the “Christian” or “Religious” label. Not only do the nuts that write this dishonor themseleves and the Lord they claim to worship, but they keep others from listening to the teachings of Jesus Christ. And it pains me to see that no Atheist or Agnostic can explain why not to be religious quite as well as a “Christian” can. In all I take the same stance as you regarding email-spam, it is crap – If you want the truth pick up a Bible, idiotic email propaganda will only hurt everyone involved.

  5. Life……..What is the purpose of it? ..it is: “To know God, to love Him and to serve Him….and be with Him eternally.” But WIGLET is right when He said…….”You cannot know God until you seek Him.” He is there, just waiting for you and me to call Him. Free will. We can choose to love or hate Him.
    I am 43 years old and I am still trying to get to know Him so I can love HIM and serve Him. “Seek thee the kingdom of God and all its’s righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you. May God bless us all!!

  6. The faithfull are too busy “seeking” for the non-existent. Concentrate on being good, and enjoying what life has to offer – you only get one chance at it. That’s what your purpose in life should be. Time is precious – don’t waste it forever seeking that which is not there…

    • Who ever this is who made this post, and comments. God have mercy on your soul. You keep on mocking his word, and all those that believe on him, your life will end just as those in the e-mail. Whether you believe the Bible or not, don’t mock it, that’s a dangerous road to travel, and only hell awaits at the end of it. I’m a very civil person, and willing to speak to any who have any questions about christianity, and what/why we believe the Bible. Just had to add this word of caution. If you keep down this path, and you end up with cancer, or an uncurable descese I want you to remember this, and remember that God is a mercyful God, but he is also a God of judgement.
      -micnatbench@gmail.com

      • Anno, I will continue mocking his so-called word if it is used to make threats upon myself.

        Believe whatever your bible tells you, but please keep it to yourself. When you start using the threats contained in the bible to exhort the public to toe the Christian line, then you are intruding in my personal space. Don’t expect me to be nice about it.

        I wrote about the email, because I don’t like being threatened by supposed gods or their followers.

        The chances of me contracting cancer are pretty high, but I don’t think believing in all the gods in the world is going to prevent me from becoming a statistic. If I do eventually get cancer or some other disease, would it make you feel vindicated?

        • Ah, I see. I appoligize for any feeling of attack. I personally do not forward those messages. I was forwarded one and searched the contents and came across your blog, and it hurt me to see that people like yourself are hurt by other Christians. Christians shouldn’t do that, and the Bible teaches us not to chasten others, that’s not our job. Our job as Christians is the be ‘Christ-like’ which is what the word Christian means. So anyone who may attack you with the Bible, and their beliefs, they’re wrong, they shouldn’t do that. You don’t go around forcing what you think, and believe on others and they should to you either. I will speak from personaly testimony, (first hand witness) My aunt, her and I were very close, the was diagnosed with cancer in the lymphnodes and after prayer, and faith she was healed. She didn’t have to under-go any treatment. The Bible says, “Lay your hands on the sick and they shall recover” she did. That’s the reason we believe in God, and the Bible, because God has proven it. Another example; My mother use to work in an office where she did alot of fileing. In the fileing rooms they have step-stools that roll, and are on springs so that when you step on them the lower to the ground and don’t roll while someone’s on them. One time when she was helping someone file, she step close to the stool unaware her foot was under it, and the other lady step on the stool and it sliced my moms ligament in the front of her foot. The ligament that controls all movement, it was severed. She went to the doctor and they said they would have to do surgry because that ligament won’t heal it’s self. So when church came on sunday she was prayed for, and when she went back to the doctor, able to walk. The doctor with his own mouth said “Miss, I can’t explain it, but you have a brand new ligament in your foot.” If that happened to you, you wouldn’t have any reason not to believe God. So that’s how I/We/My family/My Church know that God is real. There is only one God, Jesus Christ. Thanks for your response, I hope this helps your understanding a little better.

        • Anno, I’m glad your Aunt is now OK. However, if you believe that it was through some form of divine intervention, then I suppose I cannot change your mind about your conviction.

          However, personally, I would try to find some other explanation for the apparent miraculous cure. There usually is a more scientific or natural explanation, that is oftentimes not readily revealed. I don’t simply attribute anything to divine intervention, because it may be easier or more comfortable to do, or less troublesome on the mind.

          The truth is out there…

        • hey!!!! how dare you to mock our GOD!!! you damn people who may have great knowledge here on earth but didn’t know what the truth is??you are all idiots . even just reading a bible and meditating on it, your mind will be opened to the reality that GOD REALLY EXIST!!!! so damn you all atheist !!!be afraid of your salvation !!! but you still have a chance cause its not too late for a change!!

          • Hey anchorian,

            How refreshing! Damning me to hell in one breath and then offering a superfluous redemption in the next. Do they teach you this “threaten and reassure” routine in Church?

      • To Anno,
        Only a dusgusting hate filled creton posessed by the devil could have written what you have written. You are a despicable creature from hell. You wallow in the feces of Satan. Your beliefs are vulgar:
        You believe that a poor disfigured dwarf or hunchback is a profanity. You would sell your daughter in slavery. You believe in killing people who work on the Sabbath. You believe in setting people on fire. That makes you masturbate & you have an orgasm as you hear their screams. If you proclaim to deny what I have written, then you are a bigger hypocrite than those that Jesus despised. And finally I am sure that you go to church & pray in public, ….an act for which Jesus had contempt & disdain. Tonight in your bed, you will toss & turn & not be able to sleep, because the devil will come for you to join him…like a thief in the night. Heed my words…for they are true.

    • I will pray for you and those who think like you…God IS real and He IS there waiting for you. You WILL meet Him one day but if you are not careful you may not spend eternity with Him. I pray you find His Way! PEACE BROTHER!

      • Hi Skyychick

        Yet another who wants to pray for me.

        Let’s suspend credulity for one minute and assume that your god is somehow real. I then absolutely dread the thought of spending an eternity with “Him,” grovelling on my knees, pandering to “His” vanity, in constant fear of being thrown into “Hell.” No thanks, I would rather go to hell; all the most interesting people would be there already.

        By the way, why do think god is a “He” or “Him?”

        • I am a Christian believer and I also happen to disagree with everything you write. However, I am not going to tell you that I am right and you are wrong, nor am I going to offer to pray for you. I am however, going to offer you a challenge. Your writing seems to imply that you fancy yourself an intellect and a believer in science over faith. So, if you can keep an open mind and read a very short book titled “A Search for the Spiritual” by James Emery White you will find it offers scientific, mathmatical and spiritual PROOF of the existance of a Creator (God). It’s an easy read and I hope you pick it up, for if your quest is truly for fact based proof this will provide it. Before you close your mind to the idea try to remember that an true Christian relationship with God has very little to do with organized religion, rituals or propoganda, these things are man-made and man is arrogant and faliable, God, however is not. And FYI, anyone who tells you that lying for Jesus is ok is more interested in appearing “right” than appearing Christian.

          • Hi Michelle,

            Thanks for sparing me the usual Christian “love.” However I cannot thank you for wasting my time looking up this book by James Emery White. Seems he’s just another Christian apologist whose quite content at leading people on.

            I should have guessed what was to follow by just reading the chapter titles, which by the way employ a very devious tactic known otherwise known as “leading one on…”
            1. The Benefits of becoming a seeker. [Heh?]
            3. Is somebody out there. [where’s the scientific proof?]
            4. Whay the Life of Jesus Matters [Why indeed? and where’e the scientific proof that he did indeed exist in the first place]
            etc. etc.

            Anyway, a short read confirmed my suspicions. This guy has no scientific qualifications whatsoever. I would think that that would be the minimum requirement to be able to write about scientific proofs for something. He just does what every other Christian apologist does: quote mine. Look that up yourself.

            He also does not attempt to take any serious scientific work and try to debunk it; he just uses work by other pseudo-scientists that confirms his own beliefs. Not very clever, in this day and age.

            Come now Michelle; you have to do better than James Emery White.

            BTW: Having an open mind is a natural requirement for scientific examination. However, one needs to be careful that one’s mind is not so open that one’s brains fall out.

          • Hi Isaac,

            Sure he does! What worries me is who is paying the ultimate price for my streak of good fortune? You do know that the majority must be punished for the love that is bestowed on the minority, right?

    • Lenny, you say you would rather go to hell. Do you know how horrific hell is? There are people who have died and by the grace of GOD have been revived to tell to the horrors of hell.
      Every idle word you speak you will give account on the day of judgement.
      You have no idea what you are saying.

  7. wiglet writes: So the email presents distorted information…

    Yes it does, not to mention several outright lies! Apparently wiglet sees nothing wrong with lying for Jesus.

  8. Yeah, Jim, it never ceases to amaze me that we have people with such primitive thinking in the modern era. There are of course many such attempts by the religious to spread utter lies to keep the dying faith alive. I’m just glad that there are a growing number of people in the world such as yourself who see through this deception.

  9. Hi Lenny. I rarely get a Christianity-based email that is not lying or manipulative. When I receive them, I check them out and respond to my Christian friend who sent it and explain why it was wrong or inappropriate. People who send these kinds of emails are either not Christians, or they don’t understand their God. I have been atheist, agnostic, and into New Age, and self-doctrine. I also used the think the way you do about the bible. One day I gave up all of what I thought I knew and asked God, if He was out there, to reveal Himself to me. Wow, what a response I received. Scripture started coming at me out of the woodwork, and at 1st I was repelled, but then I realized that I was getting my answer, and when I picked up the bible to read it with new eyes, with humble eyes, God revealed it to me in the way it was meant to be seen. My life has moved from the ordinary to the extraordinary.
    You said a few times that “so-and-so achieved greatness and their memory lives on – what more can you ask for?” I can tell you will all assuredness that there is way more that you can ask for if you seek God. I consider those people you mentioned to have accomplished so little with their fame and partying. In the new eyes I have been given, these people were underachievers where it really counts. I hope for you that you are able to release your anger and rebellion and anger — it is only a misunderstanding based on wrong information. I know how you feel, I’ve been there.

  10. Hi Brenda, I encounter many people on discussion boards that recount the same or similar experience as you claim. They all have one thing in common: their new-found conviction is remarkable to behold. Born-again Christians are more vociferous in defense of their new-found faith than the ordinary believer, and sadly are more inclined to wallow in their delusion as well.
    Happily, I have had the opposite experience. I started out as an Atheist, dabbled in religion for a number of years, but returned to Atheism because it was the logical thing to do. I sincerely hope you realize how you’re being scammed and get out unscathed. Good luck…

  11. our world is really full of sin….our God is not deaf, though we cant see Him, but He is actually somewhere, anywhere or around us, what we sow is what we reap, so i believe in that.whatever it is, the truth is, God wont lead us to destruction, death, only satan does…God wants us to follow His steps, only He gave us the freewill, we are free to choose whatever way we want,its our own option, to love God and live peacefully or love satan and be a victim of the world’s cruel denomination….

  12. Hi Shane the blog was about religious hoax emails. Your response is full of meaningless cliches. Tell me something new or prove your cliches are true.
    “At the beginning there was the Word – at the end just the Cliche” – Stanislaw Jerzy Lec

  13. Hi again Lenny. Today I remembered your site and checked back for a response. But I read over what I had posted, and wow, those last couple sentences I wrote sounded quite arrogant! I’m sorry I wrote that.
    In response to your response…”They all have one thing in common: their new-found conviction is remarkable to behold. (etc.).”
    I think I know how you feel. In fact, it used to make me want to puke to hear anything about anyone being born-again. Imagine how sheepish I felt when it happened with me! I was suddenly embarassed that I used to ridicule people who said they were born again, and now this was the state I was in.
    “Ordinary believer,” is an oxymoron. Just because a person calls themself a Christian, doesn’t mean they really are. And you don’t encounter the born-again experience while dabbling in religion, hence why it seemed more logical to return to atheism. As Jesus said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” This doesn’t mean where you’ll go when you die. The Kingdom of God is now, and you can’t enter in except through the born again experience.
    Dabbling in religion is not being born again.
    Attending church is not being born again.
    Having Christian parents is not being born again.
    Saying you believe in God/Jesus is not being born again.
    Reading the bible is not being born again.
    Praying is not being born again.
    The best I know how to describe being born again right now at this time, is…letting pride/ego take a backseat, shutting up for a moment, and letting God reveal himself, after which you receive a new set of eyes. Old desires and habits begin to drop away (destructive ones that had always been too difficult to drop), and new desires and habits gradually replace the old if the born-again believer continues to seek God. Revelations continue to come, and the old self continues to fall away. Life becomes increasingly full of signs, miracles, wonders, prophesies, healings, and so forth… The Kingdom of God.
    I don’t expect you to believe what I say, but I thought it appropriate to respond.
    I went to the website you mentioned in another post …jesusneverexisted… there is just so much twisting and taking out of context and wrong assumptions and bias, that I was thinking maybe I would start addressing the material, one thing at a time to that site owner. I haven’t read anything on there yet that hasn’t been twisted far away from it’s actual meaning and context in the bible. In order to think the bible actually reads that way, you have to really really really want it to say those things and read it with that bias. I’m not sure if I should spend that kind of time and energy correcting all those misrepresentations. I assume he would just twist all of my words as well. How do you talk to someone who has such a barrier constructed all around them? I don’t know if it’s possible.
    Take care. Brenda

  14. Hi again Brenda. I maintain that I am born-again; a born again-atheist that is. I was not offended by your comments, not even the last few lines. Actually you are correct – I like all people harbor anger for one reason or the other. I use my blogs to vent and release that anger; you might say I write my anger away. I find no need to release it violently; I detest violence of any kind. So you see, I do not need a God or religion to shape my morality; I use logic and reason only.

    Byron Daneluis said “Religion provides the solace for the turmoil it creates.” When you truly understand this simple truth, you will understand why I am an Atheist.

    • I believe in a creator. I believe that our creator God is very upset with the accusations the Bible makes of him. He is upset with those religious devils who believe the horrible stories of God being a murderer who drowns innocent babies.

      I believe that anyone who truly gives credence to the 1st 10 passages in the Bible makes a mockery of God & the precious gift that God gave man…& that is the power to reason. That is why Bible believers are evil sinners posessed by those who mock God from the start.

        • Hello Nicole,
          Have you ever considered visiting a Catholic priest? He can drive the devil out of you thru an exorcism. Based on what you’ve written I strongly suggest it. You still have time for salvation, otherwise it’s your own doing.

  15. To believe for one minute human beings, wild life, plant life etc just happened without God you are not using the brains God gave you and one day you will discover this. The Bible tells us that “every knee will bow” and honor Jesus Christ. That means YOU too, even if you are in hell.

    • Sallie:

      What a sick, perverted, degenerate, psychotic creature you must be so full of hate that you make God out to be just like you are.

      Shame on you! I believe you should see an exorcist to drive the devil out of you.

      Scorpioa

        • Hey Sallie, Your response is a silly one. You’re the one possessed by those demon-like creatures. Not I! …..No wonder you can’t sleep at night. The devil has complete control over you, so that you can’t even respond in a non-delerious manner. My suggestion to you is that you pick up a Bible & read it starting from Genesis. They sell them at all bookstores you know. After you’ve read it & you’re not cured, then a Catholic priest is the only hope for you. Otherwise, you are a lost soul. I understand that even Jesus himself has cast you off. Get help immediately. There is still time. I await an immediate answer on how you intend to redeem yourself. No lies. No deceits…and no cheating! OK?

          Scorpioa

  16. Hi Sallie, the post was about hoax religious mails. You’re commenting on Evolution vs Creationism or Intelligent Design as it is fashionably called these days. In case you haven’t heard, there is valid scientific proof for Evolution.

    If you prefer to live your life on bended knees submitting yourself to brainwashing, that’s your choice. Does not say much for what goes on in your “brains” but there you have it. Don’t care much for what your bible says; it’s hardly a good guide for morality, now is it?. And where exactly is hell again?

    • good day friend. im sorry to let you know but if you go with facts, then the fact is that Evolution and big bang is still provin a theory. i know it has nothing to do with your topic, but i was bored and i was internet cruising and just happened to come across this. i really hope you find god friend, it will really be a blessing to see someone like you in our side.

      • Hi Josue,

        Evolution is not just a theory. The evidence for evolution is staggering, and new evidence is found almost every day to back up the “theory.” Theory is not used in the loose sense that you ate thinking about. Theory suggests a body of scientifically verifiable evidence that has stood up to vigorous testing and not found wanting in any way.

        It’s not about taking sides with whoever or whatever is the nicest or most popular; it’s about enlightenment and choosing the most scientifically verifiable explanation, even if it’s not nice or popular or feel-good. Hope you understand.

      • Hello Josue,

        You believe as you do because you have never picked up a Bible & read it. I don’t mean mumbling out loud some passage…I mean reading it. Atheists & Agnostics are more familiar with the Bible than you’ll ever be. If you believe any of the Biblical stories, then it is you mock your creator’s gift,… the power of reason. There can be no greater insult or affront to your creator. It is you who are the true enemy of your”God”.

    • Lenny,
      what is/are valid scientific proof for Evolution? i may sound naive or out of the bush but could you just explain it to me IN YOUR OWN UNDERSTANDING

      Pale

      • Hi Pale,

        Is there such a thing as INVALID scientific proof? If evidence passes the rigorous testing of TRUE science, it must be VALID. The evidence for evolution is corroborated across multiple scientific disciplines such as biology, genetic sciences, paleontology and anthropology. Off course there are disingenuous people usually affiliated with religious organizations, who use pseudoscience to discredit valid scientific findings…off course to no avail. Science is the only VALID tool for testing anything. The ramblings of bronze-age goatherders in archaic religious texts doesn’t count as proof of anything.

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  18. Friends please read & re-evaluate the “The Real Facts” again for yourselves. Do you really think they’re REAL???

  19. When I read the writings of disbelievers that put down God and say He doesn’t exist and so forth, I am more and more truly amazed. Not at their writings but how they prove the love of God. The worse they write the more they prove His love. How can God love people who hate Him so much? He does. How could Jesus die for people that hate Him so much? He did.
    The Bible explains your views. It says in 1 Corinthians 1:18 (New Century Version)”The teaching about the cross is foolishness to those who are being lost, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.”

    • Wayne, I don’t hate god; how can I hate that which does not exist. You don’t get it do you? You assume I hate based on my exposure of the irrational beliefs that seem to cling to theist’s minds like a parasite. Get a grip man; read properly and understand before making more irrational conclusions…

      • For someone who “doesn’t hate God” you sure are defensive over the fact. There is no fence sitting on this matter. Love Him or hate Him. The Bible says you are either for God or against Him. But you would have to believe in the Bible to believe that.

        I have got a grip. I have a grip on the Saviour Jesus Christ and I won’t let go. I have read properly and while I don’t understand how people choose to believe in something like evolution, God gave you that power of choice. He loves you enough to not make you a robot and to allow you to freely choose.

        I do have to agree with you that no one can prove that God exists. Christianity is a faith factor. If you had proof, you would have no faith. Your proof will come someday that not only God does exist but that Jesus exists and that indeed he did die for you. But unfortunately, if you have waited for this proof, it is too late.

        Oh, before you start into eternal hell fire, I don’t believe in eternal hell fire. That isn’t Biblical. But a further discussion on that would be doctrine and you have to get to the point of accepting God and His love before you can get to doctrine.

        • Wayne, I’m not really concerned with what the bible says; I prefer to read about verifiable facts, not fiction. Have you ever considered that religion (especially the Abrahamic religions, Islam and Christianity) in reality, teaches (no, demands that) people to hate themselves. These religions make no bones about the fact that man is a dirty sinner, who can never be “good” until he accepts god or Christ or Allah, or whatever. It teaches that you must hate what you are. You are now projecting this hatred of yourself onto me, claiming that I hate this god, whereas I have told you repeatedly that I don’t believe that a god exists. Isn’t that pathetic.

          Strange how the power of choice you claim to have, really translates to “choose Christ or else.”

          You know what, I have faith that there is a giant teapot floating around in space. Nobody has seen it yet, so nobody can prove that it’s not there. Do you think it’s normal (or sane) for someone to believe that there is a giant teapot floating around in space? Now since there is a giant teapot up there, I have absolute faith that it must be of use; so I firmly believe that the flying spaghetti monster and the green goblin have regular tea parties. Would you consider me rational for having such a belief which is based purely on faith? Now apply this to your situation. Where does that leave your faith in faith?

      • lenny, if your site is still active……this is what i have to say. you are definitely entitled to your own opinion/s about religion and whatever and so do others. i myself chose to believe in God and put my trust in Him. My stand on what others say that there is neither God/heaven nor hell is that i will choose the former simply because if there is indeed no God/heaven, it will do me ho harm. but what if there is indeed a God/heaven and hell, i will at least be spared to suffer the eternal fires of hell.

        Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

        • Hi don,

          Your argument is a common religious fallacy and is known as Pascal’s Wager. Do yourself a favour and read about it.

          Your argument basically assumes you’re betting on the right god and hell. All those who don’t conform to your version of god/hell are assumed to be in the same position as myself. Kinda arrogant, don’t you think?

  20. Lenny, I must correct you on a point. God doesn’t “demand” you to hate yourself. I don’t hate myself nor you for that matter. But I do hate the sin in my life. The sin I have in my life separates me from my Heavenly Father. It is Jesus’ death on the cross and His atoning blood that cleanses me from my sin. Without Jesus, there is no hope.

    If I deny the fact that the Jews were killed by the German army does that make that fact fiction? Or if I don’t buy into the fact that the Rwandan Genocide of the Tutsis and Hutu happened does that change history? No it doesn’t. What about if I write 10 books and get 1000 people to believe me that it didn’t happen, does that change history? No.

    Deny Jesus’ life all you want. It doesn’t change the fact that Jesus did come to this earth from Heaven, lived, died, rose again and will be returning very soon.

    He died to pardon me, you (yes you) and everyone else on this earth from their sins as long as they accept Him. John 3:16 would be inserted here. You have to accept his gift. He will not force it on you. Simple choice.

    I’ll tel you where my faith is; rather I’ll let the old hymn tell you where my faith is…
    My hope is built on nothing less
    Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
    I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
    But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.

    On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
    All other ground is sinking sand.
    Amen

    Thank you, Lenny, for our discussion on your blog. We have reached a yes-he-is-no-he-isn’t stage where neither seem to be accepting the other’s point of view.

    While I do respect you for your firm stance I doesn’t understand it nor agree with it. It is my prayer that someday soon the Holy Spirit will soften your heart and that you’ll accept Jesus as your Savior. He is waiting for you. You just have to answer His call.

    • Wayne, you are again twisting my statements to suit your narrow world view. I did not say “god” demands that you hate yourself – I said your religion (or religious teachers for that matter) demand that you hate yourself. Big difference. Once again, I don’t believe in the existence of a god, so it would be pretty dumb to assert that a non-existenet entity can demand anything.

      I’m not sure what your point is with the paragraph on denial, but it is rather disingenuous. Equating the fiction, based on the primitive beliefs of stone-age man, recorded in the bible with genuinely recorded historical events such as the Jewish persecution during WW2, is rather lame and smacks of brain-washing. If you are a bible literalist, then your delusion is complete.

      My firm stance is based on rationality and reason; yours is based on anything but…

      You are right, I can see that I will not convince you to accept reason as your primary source for interpretation of the world around you. I also don’t think that you are a “bad” person, and you certainly don’t mean any harm; so I will leave you to your narrow beliefs then…

      • Wow, I just stumbled onto this website and I’m amazed at the discussions! I too received one of those email letters and wanted to check out the facts; it’s sad that christians feel a need to pass these along. I was reminded of the man who wrote the words to ” ‘Til the Storm Passes By ” after loosing his fortune during the great depression and then loosing his children when the ship they were sailing on sank. He didn’t mock the God he loved nor did his faithful christian family, but their loss was horrific just the same. This is just part of life and each of us deals with it in our own way. I personally trust in God. I love His son Jesus and enjoy the peace he brings to my entire family. We’ve endured financial hardship, physical pain, suffering and loss but I cling to the faith that God has generously given to me.

        It is truly sad that anyone would make it their mission in life to try to destroy the faith of others, I don’t understand that. The time you spend answering each and every note and letter amazes me but what does it profit you?

        I want you to know that this past Sunday, during what we call “the children’s message”, each child was reminded of how wonderfully and beautifully God created them. They are taught to love others as they love themselves; that every person is unique and that God has a purpose for their life. I really hope and pray that you find the purpose God created you for. What a testimony that would make!! God bless you for giving believers an opportunity to speak up and give our own witness of God’s salvation through your website, I may check back to see how you are doing.

        • Hi Raye,

          It is not my mission in life to destroy faith. I think that religion is doing a pretty good job of doing that. It’s just common courtesy to answer all comments. I just do what I do, no money earned, no profits, honest.

          Billions of people endure hardship, pain and suffering every day… and they all cling to different gods. What difference has it made to them, except the forlorne hope that things will change one day. But it never does…

    • Wayne:
      If you are a follower of Jesus Christ then you would know that arguing with people about religion is NOT the way to show them the light of the Lord. Give it up to God, dude. As the bible states, “dust your shoes off and walk down the road”. Talk to those who will listen and stop preaching. You are part of the problem, not the solution.
      Go in peace.

  21. haha. You have to get better sources and opinions than this. Because criticizing an email and writing what you think about it, is simply not enough. With out a God we have no purpose no reason to live, it wouldnt be morally wrong to kill a person because without God we wouldnt know it was wrong. Everyone would just get away with everything. And trust, life without God is filled with grief, sadness and no hope. It doesnt matter what political fundementalist’s say about God. the only way to truly know Jesus, is by spending time with him yourself. Other than him, life is meaningless.

    • fearless,
      why don’t you suggest “better sources and opnions” and I promise to look at them (critically off course – something you might want to learn how to do).

      Only you can give purpose and meaning to your life, not some invisible creature living in the sky. If you need someone else to provide meaning and purpose in your life, it is indicative of a weak, pitifull character.

      If god is indeed around why is there so much killing going on since you say that without god we wouldn’t know it was wrong to kill? Then if people are still killing, doesn’t that mean that your god condones it. I think you need to re-examine your urgument – it is really flawed.

      The same goes for grief and sadness. Why is there so much of it in the world? If as you claim, there is indeed a god, why does he allow the grief and sadness.

      Logically speaking, killing, grief and sadness are actually arguments for there being no god. Get it?

      • Lenny,

        The why does your God allow this that and the other question that you asked is a point that many others have been trying make. God allows free will. One can actually do whatever he or she desires. You nor anyone else has to accept Him but it does not change His existence. God never promises a perfect earthly life if you follow Him. He says you will encounter trials and tribulations. He doesn’t even say that a person will have a bad earthly life if he or she doesn’t follow Him. However, as Christians, we build our hopes on things eternal and we live now so that we may live again.

        In reference to the e-mail, God in the old testament would wipe people out at will; however, when He sent Jesus to die for us, we were granted forgiveness and mercy for ALL of our sins. We will all have to answer for our how we have lived but that will be on judgment day. Any sin one commits is forgiven as long as one repents. You call Him a “monster” but He is anything but. He is kind and merciful and loves us all.

        I have a biology degree with a chemistry minor and have taught those subjects and earth science from the middle school to the collegiate level. I absolutely love science. I have an above average IQ and am a logical thinker…in the same breath I can tell you that I believe in God and Christ. To you that may seem counter intuitive, but I know science has yet to prove it all. And where there is the unknown about how this planet came to be or life on it came to be, I let my faith take over. True, we have theories in science, but that takes faith and belief too because we don’t know! Honestly, that is the same with God…no one knows for a fact, but it is faith and a belief. And as cliche’ as it may be, I would rather live like there is a God and die and there is none than to live like there isn’t one and die and find out there really was!

        You do not believe in God, nor the bible and the teachings of Christ and that is your choice. I do not agree with your choice but I do respect your beliefs. I would never dare to insult your intelligence or anything of that nature because that is opposite of what Christ would do. Oftentimes Christianity is judged by the acts of “Christians” and not by the acts of Christ which is all that matters and I think that is where Christianity gets a bad name. The things some people do “in the name of Jesus” (such as this e-mail) would turn anyone away. True Christians do not aim to judge, condemn, degrade, embarrass or threaten anyone for anything that they do. Christ loves us all and will forgive us all…it’s the people who do not love and forgive all! I also would never tell you not to believe what you believe or demand that you believe in God or else because I feel that no one should impose his or her beliefs on someone else nor disrespect people because of conflicting views. I do thank you for your post and I thank you for reading my response.

        • WOW,

          I appreciate that you tried to provide a real rational response; however it does not convince me in the least. Your arguments have been listed ad nauseum on countless other resources, and have always been shown to be flawed.

          One of the fundamental mistakes of all believers is that they assume that science is trying to disprove the existence of a supernatural presence in the universe. The fact that there is NO scientific evidence for this supernatural presence in no way means that science has proved that it does not exist. The onus is not on scientists to prove such existence. The onus is on believers to produce “real” scientific evidence for such a presence, and not the pseudo-scientific gobbledy-gook they are presenting as evidence currently.

          As a degreed biologist, you should know better than to state that scientific theories are based on faith. That is utter nonsense. Please reference the Defenders Guide to Science and Creationism for an explanation of what a theory really is.

          I thank you for your input. However, please try to do justice to your chosen field of science.

  22. Lenny, I feel sorry for you and will pray for you. You don’t need to respond, because I already know what your response will be.

    • You already know what my response will be? So which psychic school are you attending?

      It would be more appropriate if you felt sorry for yourself.

      Well then, let me know when you have passed psychic school.

      • No Lenny, you are twisting my words, which is a surprise because I can see in other responses that you do not like it when it is done to you. I did not say science attempts to disprove the existence of anything, science attempts to prove things and answer questions or solve problems and in doing so sometimes things are disproved but that is generally not the intention. Additionally, I did not say that theories are based on faith, I said that they take faith and belief because there is a degree of uncertainty with some of them. According to Merriam-Webster, belief, which is a synonym of faith means “conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence. While I do appreciate your attempt to “teach me” what a scientific theory is, it was unnecessary because I picked that up in elementary school. However, I would appreciate you not presuming to know what sort of “injustice” I contribute to my profession. As a scientist, I teach, explore and do science. I teach my students about facts, evidence, research and challenging ideas. They learn about the Big Bang and the cell theory and evolution with all of the concrete evidence to back it up. In a science classroom there is no room for creationism. Even when students ask me I tell them not to confuse that with science. I simply stated that in my own personal life I choose to believe in a Supreme Being but would never impose my beliefs on anyone. That is my choice and it should be respected just like I respect your choice not to believe.

        Thanks again, I really have enjoyed reading your post and responses! Take care

        • Hi again WOW (sounds strange :-))

          There was no intention to “twist” your words. I just made a blanket general statement about believers, which I admit in hindsight may not be true about all believers, but certainly a vast majority.

          I construed “take faith” to mean “based on faith.” I personally see very little difference, if any – semantics? If I have mistaken your meaning, I am suitably chastised.

          While I appreciate that you teach science “correctly” in the classroom, I am finding it hard to understand how you can believe something that goes against science in your private life. However, if you can manage to do this quite comfortably (apparently), I see no harm in it.

          Thanks for your response.

  23. “What more can you ask from life?” — Why should I ask anything from this life? Sure money, fame, or respect are awesome, but do they help any of those dead people anymore or will they help me when I die? It’s the next life that I am asking from; it’s the one I am concerned about.

    • Well, going through life in abject poverty, misery, pain and suffering is surely not going to help you when you die either; in fact it will contribute to your quicker death.

      My suggestion to you therefore is to give up all your material wealth and comfort, because you seem so sure that it will ease your entry into the “after-life.”

  24. Hi Lennie,
    Your blogs great. This post has been going on for some time. Anyway I took this from a post of mine and want to paste it here.
    ‘Why would God, a God of Love, have created man in his own image with about five thousand genetic mistakes that have played havoc with our health. Diseases that we will soon be able to correct with gene transfers or genetic engineering. All this does not prove that there is or is not a God but just that he is not the God we have created for ourselves.The Church through the ages has taught that God’s creation is perfect and that the faults in man are through man’s sin This can’t be right because through our own ingenuity we can correct these faults.Things aren’t wrong or right they just are.’

    • Hi Terry,

      Right on the mark. Yes, we have created a dual-purpose god; an inadequate god to reflect our inadequacies, and a perfect god to make it impossible for us to attain that perfection. What if evolution had dealt us the perfect hand? Would we have need for a perfect god? Or would we have created an imperfect god to guide us to imperfection?

  25. Despite the little untruths within this email, it still gets the point across for christianity. God gives us all free will, and we can either choose to serve him and go down the long and narrow path that few travel down. The other choice is way to easy to accomplish and that is to continue to serve this secular world and do anything to advance yourself, until you die. Then what happens? I know what happens and everyone should understand that the time after death is eternity.Why do people sin? The answer is simple its because it’s fun. Just because somethings fun doesn’t mean its moral everyone would agree. In my opinion these christian emails are made to get peoples attention and get people to start to think out of their comfort zone, but they always give you a prayer of salvation which really matters.

    • Hi Charlie,

      “Little untruths?” That’s the understatement of the year. Why is there a need to “spread the word of a god” through lies. Is that not a sin?

      Your assumption that fun is immoral is literally frightening. And how do you know what happens after death? Have you died and come back again? Wow, talk about getting attention!!!

  26. The theory of relativity, prove it. We know that it’s real, but it takes faith to believe in it. Don’t you understand that there are just some things beyond all human comprehension. Wouldn’t you be sorry if you died and you were horribly wrong and the bible was all true? Well at that point it would be too late. Not to mention all the prophesys that have been already fufilled through the bible. You also misunderstood me, I didn’t say having fun is immoral I said it’s easy to sin because its fun.

    • Hi Charlie,

      Since Einstein first proposed the theory of relativity, many scientists coming after him, now understand it better than he did and have made corrections and improvements. That is what science is all about. It is always open to correction and improvement. No so with religion, which claims to “know everything about everything.” And it does not take faith to believe what can be demonstrated to be true, to be in fact true. Demonstrate that religious claims are true and are verifiable through exhaustive testing?

      I’m beginning to think that some things are indeed beyond human comprehension; like why people insist on believing things that cannot proved to be true. It just makes no sense.

      Ever heard about Pascal’s Wager? Well, I for one prefer to live my life NOT worrying about things, for which there is no proof.

      Finally, you do seem to have a problem understanding that non-believers can actually tell right from wrong, without having had a holy book rammed down their throats. It may come as a surprise to you, but I don’t go around murdering, robbing, pillaging and raping, because I think it would be “fun.” You don’t have the moral high ground simply because you are religious. For crying out loud, the prison populations of the world, are statistically proven to consist largely of people who are believers (religious) people. Atheists make up a very small percentage of convicts.

  27. Dear Lenny,

    I happened to read the same exact email you posted and I couldn’t quite believe it myself. I’m a pretty logical person; I believe the Big Bang theory, evolution makes a shitload of sense to me,and etc. However, (and here’s where it gets fucked up) I’m Catholic. What I’m attempting to say is that I’m not trying to scold you for being an athiest as other Christians have done. If there’s no god, then there’s no god. End of discussion. I’ve seriously contemplated the existence of a deity and at first it seemed outlandish to me. You know, all the religious reasonings such as, “Why does god let people die?” and all those questions. But with time, I came up with my own reasoning that god, if existant, is not some man with a gray beard in the sky that strikes lightning bolts down at earth to kill others, nor some spaghetti monster, but a… presence, if you will. Nothing really tangible, but something like… a thought. Humans think all the time but thoughts aren’t tangible; we can’t fully affirm them or disprove them (cogito ergo sum falls short here, because books can’t think, but they do exist, unless this is like the Matrix and in that case, I shouldn’t have taken that red pill this morning). They just exist. When I go to church every sunday I tend to get a bit bored, I must confess. Others feel a power unlike anything they’ve ever felt. But it pains me to see the hypocrites who say they are “Christ followers” but do not live by his teachings. All I can really say is that my belief in god, humanity, life, and basically everything in general has been shaken many times before. But I’ve found comfort in a god whose existence is obviously questioned, and I’ve learned I don’t need to feel or see something to define its existence. Knowledge is not the meaning of life, the meaning of life is to live. Do whatever you want. Trying to comprehend everything is impossible, even with the help of a god or a theory that makes a lot of sense; true wisdom is precious and is not to be wasted, but as to what extent? Would I like to know everything possible? Yeah, that would come in handy. But would I slave and toil for my life to understand the universe (or universes)? No. Some things are left to be untouched, for they remain pristine that way. Doing anything in extreme is idiotic. Die hard believers are as bad as die hard athiests because both parties would like to debate and possibly escalate to an all-out war to prove their point of view. If I could find an athiest that didn’t preach about athiesm and a believer who didn’t preach about their beliefs I’d say that’s progress. I mind my own business and I think that a person’s beliefs are private and are not to be infringed upon. Therefore, these emails near the extent of uselessness. It is true that Jesus said to spread his teachings, but I have some thought that this went WAY out of hand. The Crusades were the cause of thousands of deaths, and screwed up the Christian – Muslim relationship. But these wars allowed us to get a glimpse of Asian trading, and spices became huge in Europe, leading to mass exploration and more exploitation of the conquered areas. Eventually, Europe caught up with China, and for a while, surpassed it. This leads to advances in technology. And if the crusades were never fought, this might not have happened. I think I might be able to say that it is, although remotely, possible to believe in a deity and still be a rational person. And I don’t want to be condescending, but here’s some advice: if you make your beliefs public, for everyone wo agrees with you, there will most likely be someone to vehemently oppose it and make your life a bitch. Unless you like to debate. So I try to keep myself restrained in my beliefs and keep an open mind with whatever anyone has to say. Lenny, I hope you voice your opinion, and, I know this will sound gay, but “Don’t Stop Believin'” (that there is no god). Thanks for letting me comment and you’ve got a great website here.

    • Hi Alex,

      Sounds reasonable enough. I think what all atheists are saying is that if believers insist on believing what they do, then it should be kept private; out of the public space. Atheists fall into a “militant” trap every time they remind believers that their beliefs should not encroach into the public space. You seem to understand this principle, to your credit.

      However, contrary to your assertion, I would gladly “slave and toil” to understand (learn) as much about the universe as I possibly can. It is not only a moral imperative, but a matter of survival of the species, as well. There can also be no nobler persuit in life.

      I’m also not going to chide you for that gallish statement that the spreading of religion (whether through war or peaceful means), had in any way contributed to scientific enlightenment. The truth is that science came to the fore, in spite of religion. It’s extremely disingenuous to state that scientific advances benefitted in any positive way from religious hegemony. Having said that, I do however believe that you did not mean anything bad in saying it; you have just been misinformed and mislead, like so many others.

      • Whoa Lenny. I could never be reasonable as Alex is. I thought of a comment and then I was tongue-tied the moment I read his. To each is own though. But ain’t it really interesting to talk and chime about it? I’m being overly enthusiastic… Haha.

        Hey Alex, what’s your e-mail? I might learn a thing or two from you too.

        • Well DarkLady, I consider you to be reasonable too. You and Alex both, are finding your way, just like me. Welcome to the world of learning.

        • I have never been quite so intrigued by a blog. Many thanks to you Lenny for even posting this topic! I, myself most recently have fervently diverged from any religion. I do not call myself atheist, though, because I do believe there is a higher force, being, god, entity etc. (pick your word) than any human on this earth or beyond. I was born, raised, baptized, and confirmed a Lutheran Christian and am watching those words prove to be naught but just that, mere words. I am not angry, possibly only saddened that I was being driven to believe what I was told and that there was no other way, no open-mindedness. I have met a few from the minority that does exist, who portray what I was taught a true Christian to be. They love unconditionally, live faithfully, and were humble beyond what I thought any human of this era was even capable of. They were not limited because of “God” but empowered by “Him” because of their belief. If this is the true Christian I think the vast majority of populations would have a different outlook on the religion. Alex speaks different perspective than most and I love it. You would be quite the person to have conversation with should I ever get the chance. I wish more people would consider the view he has, not to criticize but to consider and learn that not every person claiming to be “Christian” has the exact same belief. Yes, maybe the core belief, but there is a uniqueness to everyone, therefore a difference surrounding that core. They are categorized and labeled like so many others. Who is anyone to judge. Maybe I have faith there is this “giant teapot” Lenny speaks of! Who is anyone to try and convince me otherwise. My point being where does any of this end?
          Again, Lenny, thank you!

          • Hi Not.YOUR.Everyday.Homo.Sapien,

            The fact that you have started questioning the ideology that you were brought up on, is very encouraging…and brave.

            I encourage you to continue on your quest for answers.

            And thank you for the kind words…

      • Hey Lenny,

        I’ve been browsing through a number of your posts with some delight. The penetration of your arguments, or rather lack of, just adds to the commendability of your stance against religious organisations. It seems that many of their follwers seem to miss the irony of it all.

        On another note, one more relevant to this comment, I believe you may be overlooking the importance of religion in some of humanity’s early forays into the world of science. Have you ever considered the importance of alchemy and hermeticism in early scientific knowledge and basic practice, particularly with regards to their role in chemistry? Although the act of spreading itself did not trigger the aforementioned obscure religions/pseudo-religions, their existence was nevertheless important. I would be very interested to hear your opinion on it.

        • Hi earthboundauthor,

          I do acknowledge the role religion played in the early development of the human species. It cannot be under-estimated. I think most atheist scholars acknowledge this important role too.

          And yes, religion did play a role in the understanding of the world and the roots of science. However, it has outgrown it’s uselfullness, and although it deserves its marker on the historic roadmap, it needs to be consigned to the scrap-heap like so many other once-usefull ideas.

          Evolution demands that we move forward…

          PS: If you like my religious rantings, I think you’ll find my political rantings to be more “insane.”

  28. hi lenny,

    u cannot straight come into conclusion that God is vindictive. whether did God took their lives or not, no one can tell. The email is just a discoveration of a series of God mockering who end up gets a some form of punishment. But whether or not was it God who did the punishment, its a mystery. U shud treat this email as just a reminder to respect God and Christianity.

    Afterall, if God is really vindictive, u shud be dead too, since u said God is vindictive. and anyway if its really God who took those ppl’s life in a bad manner, thats no suprise cuz God is really God.

    if u are still alive, be carefull of what u say, u never know that one day, when u r just about to achieve something that u desire the most, is already ur last breath. Unless u want to tell me that u have nothing to achieve in life.

    Or u may tell me, although God may take away ur life at ur point of achievement, as long as your name lived on, you are happy. Then i will ask u to keep on counting on it, since u love ur name so much more than u love ur life, u must have a terible life that u rather to just have a name.

    • Hi cornelius,

      You have obviously misunderstood the thrust of my post. The “conclusion” that a god is vindictive, was just meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

      It would be pretty impossible for something that does not exist, to be vindictive, or anything else for that matter.

  29. hello, why is not true about what happened to this people who were not afraid of God? just because you say so?
    god is our creator and it is not a vengeful God but a just God. We ask many t imes why this is happening to this child or this good woman? because many reasons. Prpbably their granparents were involved in black magic or doing bad things and this continues to other generations unless we actually look and find the real God of everything: just, kind, benevolente, compasionate
    The bible, his word says we should do this or not, he is like a good father, i dont say like any father because not all fathers or mothers are good but God is like the best, wise, kind father who knows and wants our best.He tells us what we should do to have a good life just like a good,wise father will tell you. Dont wlk in that part of the city, it is dangerous, people knows what happened there. Do not dress provocatively, there are men who are disturbed and you will disrub them. It is up to the children to listen. The ones who listen will be saved of those specific dangers he told the other ones defiant or curious will put their life in danger. if they die is not because their father was bad, he told them but is up to the children to listen. It is simple. Do you understand? why must we think God is vengeful or bad of blame him for everything? He only warns us and is up to us to listen and we shouldn make fun of our earth father, worse of our Creator.

    /

    ;

    • Hi Rosaura,

      If you spend as much time finding rational explanations for why things happen, as you do finding excuses for some supernatural father-figure’s whims, you would see that there are perfectly natural explanations for everything.

      Perhaps you’d like to explain why millions of people are killed in natural disasters? Could it be that they didn’t “listen” and insisted in living in “dangerous parts” of the world? So all women should resort to dresing up in black tents because there are “disturbed men” out there? Come on, get real?

      How ridiculous is this?

      It is up to the children to listen. The ones who listen will be saved of those specific dangers he told the other ones defiant or curious will put their life in danger

      Are you suggesting that all children should stay indoors and stick their heads into their bibles, to be safe? Children learn because of their curiosity.

      It is simple. Do you understand?

      No, I don’t understand, I never will. There is no “black magic” or green magic or any magic. And I don’t think that god is vengeful, simply because I find it hard to see how something that probably doesn’t exist can be vengeful, or be anything for that matter.

  30. Hey, you keep on saying this … “achieved greatness before he died and his memory lives on – what more can you ask from life?”

    The Bible says in Matthew 16:26, “What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet loses his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?

    These people, you are saying, had achieved greatness before they died and their memory lived on… but what happened to their souls. I certainly believe that they are suffering spiritual death (hell) and it is eternal. And the greatness you are talking about will not help them out of it – not even the people who could still remember them.

    Well, I guess you won’t believe this as you don’t seem to believe in God.

    There still time. You may not believe Jesus Christ but He loves you. Certainly!
    God may not be pleased with your beliefs but I want you to know Jesus loves you and cares about you. Int his world, to see is to believe. But with Jesus Christ, to believe is to see. When you beleive in Him, you will experience His everlasting love. I ray that your name will not be added with the list of people who had mocked God. Again, God loves you and He is knocking in your heart.

  31. So it means that the statements of those bastards against GOd is OK with you…… Just for your punishment….. and goodluck on how you will handle it

  32. Lenny,

    I dont understand how shallow your mind is.. you just want to believe in your own knowledge, thats all you have so i understand you.

    Bible is indeed accurate.

    False teachers will rise and deny me as the their God.

    • Hi Daniel,

      You believe in the “accuracy” of the bible and yet you call me shallow minded? Well don’t that beat all?

      There is no such thing as “your own knowledge.” Knowledge belongs to everyone who take the trouble of seeking it out. However, you need to be selective about what to acquire and keep and what to discard. You obviously seem to have a problem with selection.

  33. Lenny,

    I posted a comment about a litle over a month ago, and I’m glad to see you’ve responded. I’m also quite impressed to see that you actually agreed with me on something. If you want to go on learning as much as possible, please do so. I’ve come to a fruition about existentialism, and it’s some pretty good shit. You never know, we might share some info to help each other out.
    Also, I’ve decided not to make any animadversions on your takes on subjects. After all, you’ve had enough bitching at in my opinion. I hope you didn’t detect any hostility in my previous email, as I wanted to express my opinion.

    Thanks, adieu.

  34. Are you saying that achievements are more important than God??? Nothing is more important than God even if you achieved everything without God you’re still empty…

    • cassey,

      No, that was probably the least important point I was trying to make. You’ve elected to ignore the whole point of this “rant” – that lying for Jesus is not cool. The secondary point is threatening people with “religiously” inspired damnation, even if it is only imagined, is also not cool.

      By the way, human achievement in spite of “god” is really important – to the future survival of the species. You may not see it now, but some day your grand-children (oh, if only it could be that soon)and their children will appreciate this fact.

      • I’m not going to argue with you about whether or not your belief that God does not exist is right or wrong… You are entitled to your belief…or the lack thereof. I am entitled to mine, as well… I don’t know much if anything about science but I believe that the major answers science tends to give concern the “how?” not “who?” question of creation.. And I believe… I believe in God… I believe in Jesus… I, however, have trouble accepting that lying for Jesus is cool… And I do not appreciate being blackmailed into commenting on or sharing an email or Facebook update. Why not let my love for God show in the way I relate with my fellow-man? Why shove it down everyone else’ throat?
        I also have trouble with the violence, bickering, prejudice and general narrow-mindedness that goes on in the name of the Lord. If God is all-powerful, let Him fight His own battles… I have trouble with a lot of things being done in the name of God. Sometimes, I get so tired of it all..
        How strong is faith without doubt? I’m fine with my being weak enough to need a God and yet, being secure enough to retain my right to doubt… There are a lot of questions and I won’t accept that there are no answers just yet.. If an unseen God created me (and I believe He did), then He gave me the gift of reason and I figure I have a duty to Him to fully utilise it. My faith ought to have room to grow or shrink based on answers I find along the way. Life is a journey, after all and mine has just begun… I intend to have fun while I’m at it too.
        P.S. Loving God is helping me to love myself and others as well.. I understand that not everyone will love me and finally, it’s okay… I’m even growing to like me… That has a lot to do with getting to know, confront, reassess and accept myself with a view to becoming a better human being. If the love of God has brought me to this point, religion can’t be all bad now, can it?

        • Hi Nnedimma,

          “…but I believe that the major answers science tends to give concern the “how?” not “who?” question of creation…”

          Creation is ana-thema to science. The scientific method involves enquiry into empirical and measurable evidence which must be subject to the rules of reasoning. Creationism requires believing without evidence. But thank you for acknowledging that the hoax e-mail is pretty abominable.

          And yes, religion is not all bad, but that’s not a good enough reason for subscribing to it unwaveringly. It’s like saying that wars are not all bad…

    • Dear hello,

      Are you going to pray that something nasty happens to me?

      Or are you going to leave that up to your deity to “spring a nasty surprize” on me. god knows (pardon the latitude I’m taking with invoking the name of your deity) he has so little to do with the time at his disposal, he needs to get all antsy about what poor old Lenny is saying on some website in some galaxy among a hundred billion other galaxies.

      Perhaps he will let that child dying of leukemia just expire, while he turns his attention to “sorting” me out? It’s his will after all, isn’t it?

  35. There are consequences and blessings in what we do in life.

    People who are too offended about what Lenny’s opinion is about this email have been too emotionally driven that they use God’s name to curse this person.

    You stir up this feeling that you can’t believe that Lenny’s saying these.

    It is only a simple thought, its either their time to die, or they were at the wrong place and time, or it is self-inflicted.

  36. Hey there lenny, hope all is well. the name is josue ( yes its biblical) lol. I was just bored and happened to fall into this website. From what I read I see you are a very respectful man, who will never change his mind, and is always trying to answer questions. What I propose is from one educated man to another (on different side of the fence, I am a firm believer in god, and cant change my mind as well) that we learn from each other. Now were you always a atheist or did you in one point believe in god? Well I really hope to hear from you, have a blessed day.

    • Hi Josue

      I am indeed capable of changing my mind, and will do so when the evidence is presented. It would be wrong to continue holding a dogmatic belief in spite of evidence to the contrary.

      My family was religious, but I never really cared much for it. In high school I was exposed to more knowledge and actually drifted towards atheism.

      However, a few years after college, I dabbled in religion again for about 15 years, mainly because of the community I was in. I however soon realized how wrong it all was and it didn’t make sense any more. I started seeking out answers and soon realized how really senseless religion actually was. I am sad that I wasted all those years. I could have learned so much about the real world in all that time.

    • Yescali,

      Really, let me help make your god’s lust for revenge easier:

      Obviously god is the owner of the monumental stupidity that leads one to that conclusion.

      And I think you guys can help by praying for a particularly nasty end for me. Go on, you know it’s the right thing to do. You know your all-powerful god needs support and help from his miserable, unworthy creation, against the likes of a poor old blasphemer like me.

  37. Hey lenny

    Thanks for answering my post. First off what evidence is there that proves religion is a hoax? Also this knowledge you have, what has it done to help anyone, or does it just help yourself? As well as what didn’t make sense? I mean there are drug addicts that go into church and can make sense of it all. I am really finding hard to believe that a person who attended collage can not make sense off at least one religion.
    Now I read this post over to me and you might think i sound upset or maybe a bit sarcastic, but please feel confident that this reply is in goon intentions
    Also please feel free to please ask any question you may have.

    Have a blessed day lenny

    • Hi josue,

      Religious people make fantastic claims about their religions, and when confronted cannot come up with any rational, quantifiable, testable evidence for their claims. In science, claims are also made – they are called hypothesis, and when challenged, if the hypothesis stands up to rigorous testing and examinationa and cannot be falsified, then it becomes a theory. Religion has to date not been able to withstand the rigours of scientific scrutiny, hence it can regarded as invalid (or a hoax as you state).

      However, the burden of proof belongs to those making the claims – the religious. The only requirement from the non-religuous is to examine the religious claims critically, subject it to scrutiny and expose the flaws, false claims etc. There is no need for us to actively find proof for the non-existence of a god or gods; you guys provide sufficient dammning evidence for us to suspect that the probability of your claims being true, is near zero.

      Drug addicts could make sense of anything. The problem for religion is that more people are attending college and learning what a lot of bunkum religion really is. Education eventually leads to enlightenment.

  38. Believers, don’t be offended by this man’s ‘rants’ and remarks, remember that; “The god of this age (Satan) has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God”. 2 Corinthians 4:4

    Believers in our Christ Lord Jesus, remember, we ought to pity unbelievers and not toil in debate with them for we walk by the system of faith which some of the most “intelligent” scientists fail to discern the very simple concept of, in that; “…faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for. 3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.” Hebrews 11

    Unbelievers, particularly those who work in science will find it incredibly tough to digest the concept of believing in the unseen, since scientists and the such like, work with and by ‘proofs’ and ‘evidences’ but remember Jesus’ words; “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” John 20:29

    Believers in Christ, always remember that; “…the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who are being saved it is the power of God…” 1 Corinthians 1:18

    Followers of Christ don’t forget that “…They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

    When we consider the condition of those to whom these scriptures refer to, all we need do is pity them and intercede for them since; “…the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

    Don’t waste time in debate with them because debate is not the will of God. Preserve your efforts for lost souls who will receive the Word of God. “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before the swine…” Matthew 7:6

    • I don’t know what to say: I’m touched by your Christian magnanimity.

      When you start washing with water again, let me know so that we can debate rationally; it’s always better to wash in water to keep a cool head.

        • Hi bill,

          On the other side of this life is death; I’ve never denied it. Until you or anyone else can provide me with substantial proof that there is indeed “something else” besides nothingness, I’m not going to make myself crazy imagining what could possibly be there.

          Live your life…live your life. Don’t stress over the unknowable.

    • Praise God!

      Matt 12:36 states:

      But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement.”

      Thank you-

          • Hi bill,

            Lenny, What kind of evidence would make you believe there is existance after this life?

            The kind you cannot produce.

            In case you think I’m being cryptic: Evidence needs to stand up to the scrutiny of the scientific method. The basic four steps in scientific method are:

            1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

            2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

            3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

            4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

            Therefore, in order for you to fulfill step (1) you would need to kill yourself, go to heaven and bring back anything (including angels and god itself, but it would be nice if you could actually bring back someone I know and trust) that you think could be subjected to experiment. Now,I’m not prepared to go with you, for obvious reasons. Are you up for it?

            • I think that Bill’s major problem is that he has never read the Holy Bible…especially Genesis..the first chapter in the Bible…if he did he would not be repeating all the Kookie things that he does. This is why the Catholic church forbids reading of the Bible. Anyone who completes the reading of Genesis cannot help but become an atheist….or at the very least…a non-believer. Bill like all other Kookies…loves to quote passages…sort of like when a person goes to a supermarket, he picks only that which he might favor to suit his liking. Bill is a supermarket Bible believer…he picks & chooses.

              • The Catholic church does not forbid the reading of the bible. There are people that will believe that stuff no matter what.

                Scorpia, please stop watering down this great thread with comments like “Anyone who completes the reading of Genesis cannot help but become an atheist….or at the very least…a non-believer.” As far as the rebuttals go, I think Lenny has it covered.

                Lenny, I love reading your blog and all of your responses. I think you hit the nail right on the head with every post.

                • Thank you Ken, I’m really glad to know that there are people like you out there who can see through the haze of bullshit. There is indeed hope for mankind…

            • To Lennymayso and to you to scopioa-

              The kind of evidence you require (the scientific method) deals with laboratory testing, experiments and all the logical proceedures that man in his reasoning needs to attain (and see) to be satisfied in order to begin to believe. In this material world man wants to see or he will not believe.
              The Jews wanted a sign or they would not believe. You have been involved with religious organizations.
              But religion is not the way to God. I think Lenny, you failed to understand that the Bible is a spiritual book.
              If you really wanted to know the true and the living God, go to him not some person. God will make himself known if you from your heart (not logical reasoning) search him out. He knows ALL things, and even knows you better than you know yourself.

              As for killing myself? NO. You know as well as I that is ridiculous. No one has ever come back from the other side of the grave. Except one. The Lord Jesus Christ!!! He spoke to the disciples of his death and resurrection. Hundreds of people have seen Christ after he was crucified.

              You won’t get evidence to conduct experiments because to die and come back does not involve any thing from this world. Life after this world is spiritual in nature not physical. I know you’ve heard the term, “you come into this world with nothing and you leave with nothing.” It deals with the soul. How do you conduct and experiment on the soul. Man has no control over his soul. Only God does.

              • Umm, Bill, how well did you say you know the bible?! Have you REALLY read it through? Is the story of LAZARETH fiction or perhaps that part of the bible doesn’t count? Because I would assume that is what you believe by what you stated here:

                Bill says, “No one has ever come back from the other side of the grave. Except one. The Lord Jesus Christ!”

                Do I see a discrepancy or do you have difficulty counting? Are you one of those pseudo-christians that picks and chooses what parts of the bible you wish to believe? Perhaps you need more time reading the bible rather than incorrectly quoting it by using it out of context to imply your own meaning rather than that of the author!

                • To Dawn,

                  Your right, sorry. Christ did raise him from the dead, and also a 12 twelve year old girl… there are other accounts of some of the disciples/prophets, thru the power of God having raised someone who has died. I could be wrong about many things pray not to about the word of God.

                  Thanks for the correction. I am a student of the word.

                • Hi bill,

                  Try becoming a student of reality; it’s so much more liberating.

                  Faith is a really bad thing.

                  First you need faith to accept that a simple book written by bronze-age men who were clueless about the realities of the world, is the de-facto word of a god.

                  Then you need more faith to actually believe every passage you are reading is a personal command to “give direction to your life” irrespective of how absurd or out-of-touch with reality it is.

                  Then you need even more faith to actually believe that everyone else in the world would just simply abandon critical thought, and believe the same things (absurdities, is more apt) you believe, without question.

                • to lennymaysay:

                  I’d like to give you truths concerning the Bible:

                  Man is born physically alive, spiritually dead, depraved. Separated from God. Born with a sinful nature.
                  Man by nature does not want to know God. Unless God draw him he won’t come to him.
                  Left to himself, without intervention from God will die in his sin. By default is headed to hell.

                  God, in his grace and mercy knowing this has provided a way out for man to avoid eternal damnation. He sent his only begotten son, to die on a cross so that the elect may be “saved.” Contrary to some teaching, Christ did not die for all. Just his elect chosen before the foundation of the world.
                  Acknowledging your sinful desperate state and knowing the need for a savior, (Jesus Christ) pray to God for forgivness and trusting in Jesus Christ, God-if it’s his will may save you.
                  There is true peace in Christ. Not temporal but everlasting.

                  This is the central theme of the Bible. I can’t save anyone but my job is to deliver the message.

                  Romans 6:23 for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

                  John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me.

                  John 6:44- No man can come to me, except the father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up on the last day.

                  Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

                  I’m on your blog to share the gospel with you and whoever may read it. Thank you.
                  Hey Lenny, today is still the day of salvation, Cry out to God while you still can.

                • To Billie Boy: Thank you. Thank you. I could not have done a better job of proving you as a seriously depraved candidate for a straightjacket. If this doen’t clinch all. You are not only a danger to others, but to yourself as well. It’s obvious that from what you’ve written here you are quite capable of doing yourself extreme harm that could be fatal.
                  I say again, get thee to a Catholic exorcist priest. Hey, Billie, Save yourself, while there is still time. There’s still a chance that you can remove yourself from all the hatred that is pent up within you & just perhaps, you can become a decent loving human being.

                • Hi bill,

                  When it comes to the bible, there is very little truth, I’m afraid. Truth does not have to be rammed down people’s throats…every Sunday.

                  You, unfortunately, like so many who are religious, have a very low opinion of yourselves, so much so, that you beat yourselves up at every opportuntity, and then proudly display your self-hatred for the world to see. You don’t realize how you could be spiritual without having to be religious, because the religion virus has embedded itself so thoroughly into your whole psyche.

                  Every time I stop and look in awe at the natural beauty of the world, I have a “spiritual” experience. A real pity you will never experience this, because you are too busy wallowing in self-hatred and fear, about a future beyond life that is unknowable, while grovelling on your knees, hands clasped in prayer, revering a hateful, invisible figure you call god.

                  The only thing I acknowledge is how grateful I am to be rid of that pus-filled sore known as religion. I’m on this blog to share the utter beauty of free thinking, freedom from fear and superstition.

                  Hey, bill, I found salvation a long time ago – the day I adopted critical thinking.

                • To Bill:
                  If Bill wasn’t so full of hate that is devouring his insides, he too could achieve salvation. Bill is a despicable human being who is a danger to all parties, including himself. Bill is capable of suicide. If you read his comments it’s very obvious he is capable of destroying himself. It’s difficult to say what contributes to Bill’s sickness. Perhaps his upbringing, perhaps some disappointment in life. But we do know he is a very disturbed creature.

                • Lenny,

                  Re: Bill… Writing to Bill & explaining your own “spiritual” experiences & true love of life to him is like trying to explain it to a clam or an oyster or a barnacle that sticks to the bottom of the seawall.

                  Today, I had my “spiritual” experience when I walked thru my beautiful garden created by “my” God. A god of love & beauty.

                  Bill created a psychotic, murderous Biblical God in whom I have no interest, nor should anyone one else who has an ounce of decency in him.

                • But Bill as a firm believer in the Bible (Ha Ha) refuses to tell us if Cain had sex with his mother, Eve? If so, you know what that makes him…right? an M.F. (If ya know what I mean?)If not, then whom? How did he get all them children?

                  Was there another creation by another God out there that he visited. C’mon Bill. Fess up! You know absolutely nothing about the Bible, except them robotic quotes that you come up with.

                  Bill is a fraud…unless he tells us who Cain diddled with to have his children. BILL IS A FAKE…BILL IS A FAKE…BILL IS A FAKE!

                • to scorpioa: sorry, but I can’t communicate with you because then I would have to lower myself to your level.

                • Hey Billie Boy!
                  Nice try …a bit feeble even for a psychotic. Your assignment from me is: give it another try just to convince me that you’re not mentally unbalanced. I await your response. If I don’t get a response from you, it proves I have you pegged as a hell-born, ill bred, mendacious, Cuckoo bird, lewdster. Don’t fail me now.
                  If you fail me you may expect a man in a white suit at your door waiting for you with a butterfly net. Govern yourself accordingly.

                • Oh well Bill forgot about Lazarus. Dang that Billie Boy…he’s so forgetful! Did he also forget about Dracula? he came back. I think Bill is just putting us on for laughs. If he isn’t, then like I’ve said before he needs to be caught with a butterfly net by the guys in the white suit. Or could he be……CRIMINALLY INSANE & therefore not responsible for his actions? Perhaps he has forgotten that telling lies before God is a criminal act. Oh he forgot that too!

              • Hi bill,

                “In this material world man wants to see or he will not believe.”

                Unfortunately for you, while you’re still living in the material world, and you are still composed of flesh and blood, you have to embrace reality, like the rest of us.

                When you pass on and become a “spirit” thing, then you can believe whatever takes your fancy. It won’t bother me in the least; I promise.

  39. In an earlier post, you stated, “No, that was probably the least important point I was trying to make. You’ve elected to ignore the whole point of this “rant” – that lying for Jesus is not cool. ”

    Why does it matter to you whether or not it’s “cool” to lie for someone whom you don’t believe exists?

    If you don’t believe, that email shouldn’t have been an issue for you. Why didn’t you just hit delete and go on with your life? It should hardly have deserved a blurb in your blog. You’re “rant” and responses brings a particular phrase to my mind; “Methinks thou doth protest too much”, which leaves me with two possibilites for your diatribe:

    #1) You’re purposely inciting debate to up the readership of your blog.

    or

    #2) You know somewhere deep down inside that God exists.

    Not knowing which answer is truly correct, even though I have my thoughts on the matter, I can only hope it is the latter.

    If you’re belief that God doesn’t exist is accurate, then, upon my death, I’ll have lost nothing.
    But if you’re wrong, then, upon your death, you’ll have lost everything.

    • Hi there

      Why does it matter to you whether or not it’s “cool” to lie for someone whom you don’t believe exists?

      You’ve obviously missed the point I was making. It was merely hypothetical. The email is an issue to me because it’s one of many such which I am assualted with daily, and uses emotional blackmail, crude coercion and gross dishonesty to get the reader to direct his thinking in a certain direction, much like false advertising.

      You obviously think it’s OK to conduct your religion in such a despicable mannner. Hoping it brings you more converts?

      Think whatever you want; it does not alter reality.

  40. Dear Mr ‘Know-It-All’,

    I quote you,

    “The email is an issue to me because it’s one of many such which I am assualted with daily”

    I’ve not come a across this word “assualted” before, can you fill us in?
    If you mean it’s one of many emails you’re assaulted with daily then would you care to critique more of these so-called barrage of emails that frequent your email daily? My, that must be a lot if it’s daily! Or was it in reality more like perhaps two, maybe three emails and you, as the last person correctly observed, are in fact inciting debate to up the readership of your blog? The latter, I believe is highly likely. If I am wrong please do debunk what I’ve said and present us with the ‘numerous’ others up for ranting.

    With regard to your response to Washed In The Blood Of Jesus’ remarks, I do believe they made it clear that it they were not out for debate and were clearly addressing the Christians in response to your blog, yet you replied with “let me know so that we can debate rationally” do you sort if make it up as you go along, without understanding fully what has been expressed?

    I’ve observed this blog from a distance for some time and can clearly see quite pronounced holes in your arguments in spite of your exhaustive efforts to present yourself as highly ‘egg-headed’ if you will, when in reality all you’ve been doing is throwing your poisonous opinion around which is in reality ignorance-dressed-up.

    Finally you quote “Think whatever you want; it does not alter reality.” is probably one of the only comments you’ve made that is remotely noteworthy only that it applies accurately to you and your beliefs.

    • Dear “Spelling Troll,”

      Care to explain what “…do you sort if make it up as you go along,…” is?

      As I explained in my About Page, if you invite ridicule, you’ll get it in spades.

      What don’t you understand about “one of many…daily,…” Did I say “barrage of emails daily?” Why am I not surprised that you draw the conclusions you do with this type of reasoning?

      Point out the “quite pronounced holes” in my arguments and I will gladly “present” the “‘numerous’ others up for ranting.”

      If I’m inciting “debate to up the readership” of my blog, why have you fallen for the trap? Does it not tell you something about your character? You’ve indulged in the very same ranting that you so glibly accuse me of. Do you not find it strange that you could be moved to comment (rant actually) about a blog you consider offensive, and then question how another person could be moved to comment (rant actually) about insulting emails he receives?

      “the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars–their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulphur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21:8” And you don’t consider this as “poisonous opinion”? Whay am I not surprized? The familiar position again!!!

      I suggest you look up the meaning of reality. You might find it quite interesting.

      Regards from Mr. Know-It-All.

    • Hi FaithFirst,

      Kindly explain to me what religion has explained in the last few thousand years, except GODDIDIT.

      Do you suppose that all the technological advances that you currently enjoy (including the internet) was as a result of praying?

      Yes, sure, science may never explain everything, but it will try its best to, and mostly succeed…while you spend your life on bended knees thinking you know it all.

      Ignorance is not a virtue and will only get you into an imaginary heaven…

  41. Revelations 21:8……..Revelation 21:8 (King James Version)

    8..”But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death”.

    This passage refers to people like Oral Roberst who is burning in hell now, Pat Robinson who will be soon burning in hell, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Billy Graham, his daughter Anne & all evangelists, most bishops, religious preachers and those who claim that God speaks to them & declare that the bible is the work of God. They are the liars, and sorcerers and the abominations to God. Those who read the 1st few paragraphs in Genesis & claim that to be the fact or believe it to be so are the violators of the creators gift to mankind…the ability to reason….& they are the true sinners in the eyes of God.

  42. P.S. I defy all demons & those possessed by demons to challenge & refute what I have written above.

    Demons, idolators, liars, the warped minded, the accusers, the devil worshippers & reeky, plume-plucked miscreants are all invited to reply.

    • Scorpioa (Lenny????) I am not a demon, as far as you know, but I am interested….

      Why is Oral Roberts burning in hell now? What scientific evidence do you have of this? Do you know that the Bible was not divinely inspired? If so, what scientific evidence do you have of this? How do you know that God sees those who believe in the Bible as sinners and what scientific evidence do you have of this? Do you know that God did not speak to the people you listed? If so, what scientific evidence do you have of this?

      Joe

      • Hi Joe

        I can’t comment on Oral Roberts because I don’t believe in hell. But I’m interested in why you require scientific evidence for a non-belief.

        I am not the one making all these claims for god, the bible etc. so there is no onus on me to provide any evidence for my non-belief. The onus is on you and those who make the claims to come up with the scientific evidence for the claims you make.

        To make it more simple for you to understand, allow me to illustrate in this way: I believe that there is a giant teapot floating around the Milky Way galaxy, and every Tuesday, Zeus, Appollo, Thor and the tooth fairy meet on planet Neptune at around 3PM for a tea party. If you don’t believe me, please provide the scientific evidence that proves me wrong.

        • To Lennymaysay,

          Good point, but then Joe can respond by saying, “How many are there that believe that?” That’s the difference. What Joe’s problem is, like so many others is that he has never, ever picked up a Bible & read Genesis. If he did he would automatically become a non-believer. More atheists have read the Bible than them religious folks. The Catholic Church has always been aware of this & that is why they forbid the reading of the Bible. The interpretation must be allowed only by the clergy. If they allowed their stock to read just the entire book of Genesis, notwithstanding the rest of the stories, they would lose followers. Give them credit where credit is due.

      • Hey Joe: Sorry, to disappoint you Joe, but you are a demon or(posessed by some). Your vulgar response proves that you are a danger to yourself as well as others. The time will come when the Lord will take his vengeance upon you for the filth that you spewed against him in your comment. Perhaps a Catholic Priest can save you. Youstill have time to save yourself from a burning HELL!

  43. To Joe:

    Why do I need scientific evidence when I have the word of God? If you distrust me it is because you are a non-believer despite your hypocritical proclamation. Jesus warned against false prophets. False prophets all burn in hell. Therefore Oral Roberts burns in Hell. Your problem is that you never bothered to read the Holy Bible. Crack it open someday & you will see the light my friend. It will do you some good.

    Scorpioa

  44. May the Lord have mercy on ALL OF YOUR SOULS!
    I serve the True and Living God! And mock Him if you want – He is NOT to be mocked! One day EVERY KNEE is going to bow (however it does, it will) and EVERY TONGUE will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Keep on writing this filth if you want – someday we’re ALL going to die, and it’s then that the Lord God Jehovah will have the final say. So, go one do as you please you fools! (the Bible says “the fool says in his heart there is no God”) when you leave this place you gotta go SOMEWHERE!! And where you’e going – you’ll be praying for water!
    Have a Nice Day!

    • To Sherri,

      Only a cruel mentally unbalanced sexually perverted demon, who is full of hate, so much hate, that it distorts her mind & corrupts the soul, would make the comments you just made. There are many Catholic Priests who can perform an exorcism on you & drive the devil out of you. See one immdiately, otherwise your excruciating soul is condemned to HELL for eternity. You still have time. I’m sure that if you searched long & hard you can find an Exorcist. Do it now. Look at what your Master Satan has done to those poor people in Haiti. You & other disciples of the Devil have caused that destruction. There is still time for you to save your soul. We all are praying for you.

    • Hi Sherri,

      You know all this. How?

      You advocate servitude to a despicable ideology and you accuse me of writing filth?

      How can you look forward to an eternity “on your knees” with such eagerness? Do you consider that normal or healthy?

    • Sherri is a vile despicable individual full of perversion & hate. So she will be believe in a vile despicable ideology Jesus warned against those who follow the ways of the devil as she does.

      Sherri thrives on spewing hatred. Her soul is corrupt.

      There is a place in Hell already reserved for Sherri. Lenny is being very kind to her in reference to her remarks. She deserves to be chastised for her evil thoughts, just like any demonic creature.

  45. Lenny,
    You are always looking for evidence for everything that happens in this world. Can you provide evidence for the origin of the universe or the so-called “big bang theory” with compelling and tangible evidences? Please don’t force your ideas on people by brainwashing them to fall into your thoughts.

    • Hi Tari

      We have scientific hypothesis on probable causes which current experiments at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) will confirm or refute, or lead to more answers, or open more questions. At least we are trying to find answers using the scientific method.

      You propagate sitting on your backside and accepting “any bullshit” fed to you from the religious fraternity, with no proof whatsoever.

      Unlike your religious masters, I don’t “brainwash” anybody. I question and expose the lazy-ass approach you seem to be so proud off. I advocate alternatives to blind faith.

      I have never “forced” anyone to accept my “ideas” with threats of eternal damnation and hellfire etc. My “ideas” are shared openly; you are free to accept or decline them, but please, at least try to be rational.

    • Hey Tari:

      Do you realize how stupid your comment, question is? Read it over & over & over again & maybe you will convince yourself, unless your IQ is lower than your body temperature, which I believe is way below freezing. You only contribute to making people who do have faith, appear like complete idiots though many (not all) are.

  46. Hey Tari:

    Do you realize how stupid your comment, question is? Read it over & over & over again & maybe you will convince yourself, unless your IQ is lower than your body temperature, which I believe is way below freezing. You only contribute to making people who do have faith, appear like complete idiots though many (not all) are.

  47. So Lenny, where exactly is this scientific proof of evolution you talk about? I’ve never seen it. All I’ve seen are a bunch of theories, assumptions and missing links. Where are the transitional fossils? If you believe in evolution then you, like those of us who are Christians, believe in something you can’t see and can’t prove exists. If there’s proof, please direct me to where I can see it.

    • Hi JC,

      The proof of evolution is freely available, but the religious blinkers you have put on, are prevemting you from seeing it. The evidence is there; plenty of it. Evolution does not rely soley on fossils as proof of its veracity. Even if fossils were absent, evolution stands on its own.

      Even if I directed you to the proof, you would find some excuse to doubt it, based on religion. The ball is in your court…

    • Hi bill,

      Actually, you have no idea how closely related we really are. Genetic research conducted indicate that we share anything between 94% to 98% of our genes with chimpanzees. Bonobo apes appear to be our closest living relatives because we shared a comon ancestor with them; meaning we evolved from the same common ancestor.

      Considering the manner in which you have commented, I assume you are another creationist who would rather live in a fantasy world, than in reality.

      Personally, I think apes have every right to feel aggrieved that you (and your fellow creationists) are representative of what is arguably the most advanced form of evolution to date. They must really be laughing at you lot.

    • Hi bill,

      And where is Kent Hovind going to get $250 000 from? The thieving, lying, dumb-shit is languishing in prison for tax evasion, and by all accounts is desparate for cash himself.

      This asshole does not even understand what evolution is, hence he has reneged on paying out that cash to many scientists who have proven beyond a shadow of doubt, that evolution is a fact.

      This ignorant twit states on his website, where he makes the challenge, that anyone taking up the challenge, must “prove” that evolution hinges on the following “major events”:
      1. Time, space, and matter came into existence by themselves.
      2. Planets and stars formed from space dust.
      3. Matter created life by itself.
      4. Early life-forms learned to reproduce themselves.
      5. Major changes occurred between these diverse life forms (i.e., fish changed to amphibians, amphibians changed to reptiles, and reptiles changed to birds or mammals).

      The first three have nothing whatsoever to do with evolution, but are cosmological rather than biological phenomena. So, are you surprized that he has not coughed up the cash yet? How can he when he doesn’t even understand the challenge he put out there? He first needs to learn the difference between biology and cosmology, evolution and abiogenesis.

      No ethical scientist will actually take this moronic challenge seriously.

    • Hey everyone, man was probably treated for schizophrenia and comes back to lie about it. The hell story was probably convenient at the time. A decade ago, he would have been telling everyone how he was taken on a spaceship to the Planet Vorgen, and met Tweedlenose, the one-eyed Vulcan.

      bill, you really need to do something about your propensity to believe utter nonsense; it’s not a virtue.

    • Get the butterfly net. Quick! Bill…honestly when was the last time you were in a straight jacket? When did them aliens get hold of you?

      Bill is putting us on….nobody can possible be so sick & nuts at the same time!

  48. Bill needs a good Catholic Priest to perform an excorcism to drive the devil out of him…..Bill: If you don’t take my advice & do this you’re going to the HOT place…if you know what I mean. I’ll make you a $250,000 bet…that’s where you’re going otherwise.

  49. I recieved the same email today, I couldn’t stop laughing at the generalizations and the obvious blurring of the facts. The one thing that really bothers me about the “facts” is that the campinas car was wrecked beyond recognition but the trunk was ok — Can’t anyone recognize the type of car from the rear anymore?!? Do they remove all indicators of make and model (tail lights and name are usually unique to each brand) from the cars in Campinas?!? Luckily my email only required I forward it to 8 friends to be safe from the Wrath of God. Does that mean the wrath on me will be less than those who were supposed to send it to 10 people or was God just mocking me with this email?!?

    • Hi Dawn,

      It’s disturbing that this e-mail is still doing the rounds. Just goes to show the level of ignorance in the world, and how superstition can create a vice-like hold on those unwilling to think critically.

      Glad to see that you though, belong to the world of critical thinkers.

      • The Bible mocks God. The Catholic Church acknowledges this. This is why Bible reading is forbidden in the Catholic Church. Those who read the Bible & do not acknowlege it as fiction are destined to burn hell for eternity. More need not be said.

  50. Can’t you just picture all those little demons, Matthew, Mark, Luke John, Paul, etc. scurrying around, trying to get people to swallow all their outrageous fictional stories?

  51. Bill asks, what is on the other side of life? Answer…only that which one perceives to be on the other side. Nothing more…nothing less.

    Pure conjecture…….Neither can be proven. But common sense should be your guide.

    If the creator did not expect man to insist on proof & I mean proof (thru common sense) …(not fictionalized psychobabble)…he would not have endowed him with a brain.

    • What one perceives out of their own imagination to be on the other side is no assurance at all.

      A heart surgeon, has written a number of books on the death experience and clearly shows from his own practice and from the experiences of his patients, that not everyone goes to the light when they die, where there is total love. Many of his patients, after being resuscitated on the operating table, spoke about seeing hell. I know it’s politically incorrect to speak of hell and it’s not a pleasant thing to talk about but Biblically hell was originally created for the devil and his angels.
      But unsaves man will share hell with them.

      • Hi bill,

        Heart surgeons who write books about the near-death experiences of their patients as if they personally know for a fact what went on, give new meaning to the word “quack”

        I suppose you also believe the books written by UFO abductees about their experiences “in the light”? Same delusion, different method of experiencing it.

  52. To Lenny
    I’m sure that after you sent this e-mail, many things has gone through your mind and I trust that you’re had the opportunity to collect your thoughts. While I don’t always agree with how some of these types of e-mail are presented. I do know that there comes a time in each one of our lives that we have to turn around and chart a different course if we are headed in the wrong direction. That warning comes from God, because He loves us. John 3:16. If we don’t heed the warning we could have a different outcome in our lives. Greatness in the eyes of men is a far cry from greatness that comes from God. Giving honor to God for our gifts and talents are vitals, because it is Him who gave us the gifts and the power to get wealth.

    • Sorry to disappoint Ethel, but John 3:16 comes from John.

      I am elated to learn that Ethel does not believe in the Old Testament, such as Genesis, Garden Of Eden, Noah’s ark, Jonah & the whale, Joshua stopping the sun…and the moon, Cain having sex with his mother…that’s good to know.

    • Hi Ethal

      First, let me say well done for refraining from the usual hollow religious threats that Christains are so fond of resorting to, when confronted by (valid) criticism.

      However back to the topic: What makes you think that I have “charted the wrong course” and you (and other Christians, presumably), the right one? You have judged me based on one book?

      “He loves us?” If what is happening in the world right now, is “love”, then I shudder to think what your god is capable of when he hates us?

    • Can I ask Ethel (the Bible demon) the same question as I asked Bill? Or is she also a fake?

      Did Cain have sex with his mother, Eve? That’s the question. I want all Bible demons to answer this.

    • Ethel worships a satanic God, who takes pleasure in watching little children drowning in the big Biblical flood as their little arms and legs go thrashing while they are gasping for breath & their little lungs become filled with water as the blood spurts from within them, I want Ethel the demon to hold her breath for 5 minutes no 10, minutes see how she likes that as quotes robotic passages without regard for the suffering of little human beings, drowning in the floods of Katrina, being buried alive under tons of concrete, sceaming in agony in Haiti. I wonder how she would like that.I believe that when Ethel hears of those things she becomes orgasmic with extreme pleasure. Only a person possessed by demons, that can be cured by a Catholic priest can even hold those sick, degenerate, perverted thoughts. Go ahead Ethel hold your breath & see how your satanic devil that you worship comes to help you!

  53. Do not play with fire or you will get burnt. do not EVER say that the word of GOD is filth or rubbish because it is life. to whoever created this page, may his hands be upon you.

    • Hi gezel d

      I promise I won’t; not unless you can prove that there is a god and he did say something. In which case I will exercise my right to freedom of speech and call it rubbish if indeed it is.

      BTW: Considering all the controversy over the Catholic sexual abuse cases, it’s mighty peculiar of you to say something like “may his hands be on you.”

    • to gezel d; What a filthy degenerate, perverted human creature you are. You are an affront to the living God. You are an abomination before him! You know nothing about the Bible. You have never read it. You obviously don’t know how to read in your ignorance. You can’t even tell me where all the people came from after Adam, Eve, Cain & Abel. You are a slug in the sun for your vulgarity. Get thee to a Catholic Priest so he can perform an exorcism upon you & drive out the devil. There is still time, otherwise HELL in all its glory awaits you.

  54. No one has ever been brought to a place of inquiry by argiung the claims of Christianity. Much I’ve read is a back and forth of statements that may or not be true. Even if you have had a “bad” experience in church or with Christianity..please consider not “throwing the baby out with the bath water”..rather take the time to inquire about the claims of Christ for yourself.., “What have you got to lose?”…Since you are discussing quotes, whether true, taken out of context, or whatever..Here is an actual quote that you can research and find it was truly spoken by the Beatle George Harrison, before he died…”Everything else can wait, but the search for God can’t”…I had someone in my life that did not try to “convince or cram anything down my throat”, rather challenged me to see for myself if Jesus is who He claimed to be..I did…Thank you

  55. Hi Michelle

    Why do you presume that I had a bad experience with Christianity? I’m not Christian. I’ve not had a bad experience with any religion. In fact I had good experiences with the particular religion I once followed.

    However, having good experiences is not a good reason to continue following something that you discovered to be inherently a lie. Once I began to strip religion down, it became quite clear what a lie I was living.

    If you are satisfied with the superficial, primitive attraction of religion, it means you have not examined it properly yet.

    You’ve challenged yourself to accept blindly. Now challenge what you think you’re experiencing, scientifically, rationally…

  56. Thank you for this forum for dialog..This is what is so good about living in a free society. If you would allow me, I would encourage your readers to consider reading books on Christianity that are published by “thinking people, since I do understand that many think that Christians do “check their brains at the door”..Consider the writings of Ravi Zacharias, Lee Strobel, (Former atheist-lawyer) and others,some scientists. I will end with a quote from writer Dinesh D’Souza, (Formerly a White House policy analyst and fellow Standford University. His quote is as follows, “The aversion to religion and embrace of atheism becomes especially baffling when you considerthat, on the face of it, atheism is a dismal ideology. Many atheists rage against the dying of the light, and facing the pointlessness of it all.This strikes me as a bit of a pose, and an inauthentic and slightly comic one at that. As Michael Novak observes, if there is no God, what is there to rage at?” Thank you

    • Hi again Michelle

      I’ve had the unpleasant task of reading some of Lee Strobel’s work; he’s just another religious apologist who though he had stumbled onto something earth-shattering. Turned out he was just grasping at straws like other apologists for religion.

      I’ve watched a few debates online where Dinesh was one of the debaters. Seems he always got his ass kicked. Pardon my language.

      Atheism is not an ideology (although religionists go to great lengths to make that false claim); unlike religion which most certainly is. Atheism is just a state of non-belief; in varying strengths mind you.

      Poor Dinesh; he needs to be more observant. Atheists rage against theists, not the pointlessness of life. We have come to accept the pointlessless of life, and accepted it. Dinesh is being disingenuous as usual.

      Michael Novak’s powers of observation are as dismal as Dinesh’s. We don’t rage about the absence of god; we rage about the absence of rational thought which results in strange beliefs, god being one of them and homeopathy, another.

    • Hi Michelle

      Yes, everything has a scientific explanation. The fact that scientific explanations haven’t been found for a lot of things, does not mean that an explanation does not exist; it’s just that it hasn’t been found yet.

      And that’s not for lack of trying. Someone once commented that if science had found all the answers already, it would stop. Therefore science continues, because it does not claim to have found all the answers. Unlike religion, which claims to have all the answers, but just causes more questions instead

  57. As a youg adult, I never accepted anything blindly..in fact I researched and read about science, religion, reason for existance, etc. I do believe that Scientific method appled to any theory is important. What I do wrestle with, is that scientists will at times embrace a conclusion, even if the evidence is weak. On the other hand, I have read that some scientists will object to findings in modern physics that possibly point to a divine creator. It seems that scientists should not align themselves with less plausible alternatives just to refute any possible connection to a designer. Is it that scientists will not accept any evidence of God? Just some thoughts I’d love to hear your response..thanks again

    • Michelle: I think you have it backwards. Just exchange the words “scientists” with “religionist” & you have it correct. You don’t sound like some loony Bible thumper. But you’d have to admit that even if you believe in the existence of a creator, the stories in the Bible from Genesis & upwards are pure imaginary fiction & fabrication. Some stories may have stemmed from some real historical event, but it’s all fiction. If you write me back & tell me you believe that there is any credibilty in the first 2 pages of Genesis, you yourself lose all credibilty in what you wrote in response #171.

  58. Hey Michelle,

    Just a note of correction: the scientific method is applied to a hypothesis, which through observable, empirical and measurable evidence (tested exhaustively) eventually becomes a theory. In this sense the theory is regarded as fact.

    True scientists will not embrace a hypothesis if the evidence is weak. You are referring to pseudo-scientists, many of whom are in the employ of religious apologist organizations such as Answers in Genesis or The Discovery Institute. This lot are famous for distorting the evidence to conform to a belief system.

    There is no plausible evidence for a god. All the evidence thus far presented, actually points to the opposite. In any event, true scientists are not concerned with proving or disproving the existence of any deity. It just happens that they have a moral obligation to debunk the pseudo-scientific nonsense that is invariably presented by religious apologists, as evidence.

    But that does not mean that real evidence for a deity will not be presented some day. However from past and current experience this appears to be highly unlikely. Atheists therefore see no reason to enslave themselves to an unproven ideology; we would rather just get on with the business of life.

    Present the evidence and we will obviously start believing, but until then….

  59. Hi again,
    I have to say that I appreciate this exchange and you pose some great questions that promote great thoughts. I do want to mention up front that I am not as concerned with maintaining my credibility as I am in having great dialog. Here is another thought as long as you brought up the first two books of Genesis. I do understand that using modern theories of science to understand Biblical passages would draw one to conclude that the Bible is ridiculous. But think about this..Should we compare twentieth-century science with sixteenth-century interpretations of the Bible? To assume that science is superior to the Bible because current understanding of scientific phenomena are superior to obselete interpretations of the Bible is not accurate observation…Instead,perhaps the argument ought to be between what can be fairly understood on what the Bible says based on modern information, and atheistic ideas based on modern discoveries. In other words, comparing modern atheism with modern Christianity, not contrasting modern atheism with ancient Christianity…just some thoughts…thanks again

    • Well, at least we agree that God had nothing to do with the Bible except in the fiction writer’s own mind who put him there.

    • Hi Michelle

      It begs the question: what makes you think that bronze-age man knew more about the world than modern scientists with modern tools available to them.

      BTW: Robert C Newman is another religious apologist. There are quite a few of them, but by-and-large the majority of scientists are not religious. These true scientists use the scientific method to come to a conclusion, unlike pseudo-scientists who come to a conclusion first and then try to twist science to fit in with their conclusion.

  60. I ended too soon without giving credit for the influence for some of my comments coming from the readings of a man named Dr. Robert C. Newman, who earned a Ph.D. in Astrophysics. He is a professor that teaches courses on the interaction of Christianity and Science. Just wanted to give credit where it is due:)
    Thanks once again

  61. Fuuny thing that I’ve observed over the years when having conversations with my dear atheist friends is that they “seem” to be comprised into two groups. There are those that are “kicking the tires” of Christianity with open minds in order to see what it’s all about. The second group I’ve observed are those that are “attacking” of anyone that believes in Jesus Christ and then at times go on to make assumptions that seem to be more reactionary, then based on what they have found by searching it out for themselves. If one looks at the life of Christ with a critical eye,one may be surprised to discover that He was a dynamic young leader of his time who debated great thinkers such as Nicodemus, a learned theologian. Jesus live a very radical life, spreading a new theology, that during that time, “bristled” the strict, legalistic teachers who held people in bondage to rules and religious constraints. Somewhere along the way, people began to place Christ in that same archaic box along with “religious leaders”..I have found Him anything but “religious”…Bringing up science once again…To cling to old or partial scientific theories when advanced ones exist would stunt the growth of science, and to me, limit one’s own involvement in it’s advance. In the same way, I believe, limiting or denying the possibility of a spiritual realm may not be wise. Our brains and the understanding of them is still incomplete. How can we say that our only experiences in life have to be tied to our five senses..what we see, feel, taste and smell? How can we say that just because we can’t detect things spiritual by our five senses,they don’t exist. That seems rather close minded, wouldn’t you agree? You don’t have to agree, of course, just enjoy hearing your thoughts…Have a great day:)

    • Hi Michelle

      It’s been said that if Jesus (if he did indeed live and do some the things attributed to him) were to come back today, he would be ashamed of Christianity as it is practiced, and indeed what has become of the world.

      The nature of true science is not to “cling” to obsolete theories etc. You will find that true scientists move on and accept new proofs, unike religionists who hang on dogmatically.

      The thing with science is that it teaches one not to accept the first supernatural explanation for any phenomena which involves the senses. Science teaches that there is always a natural explanation for everything; but you have to be patient and explore until you find it.

  62. Just wanted to add that I agree with WOW. I,as a Christian, am compelled to speak about my experience concerning my encounter with the Bible, Jesus Christ and Christianity. I will never condemn anyone or attack them with threats about damnation, Hell or their personal beliefs. That would make me a hypocrite, speaking about the love of Jesus with one side of my mouth, and spewing hate speech with the other…we need to speak the truth in love and that is my motivation. I’m sorry and grieved to see hatred spoken in the name of Christianity. I will however ask questions because I am very aware that in other parts of the world, we would never have the freedom to have these exchanges and that’s pretty cool I know, I know…my “truth” will be challenged..and hey, that’s ok…Thanks for posting these emails..really appreciate it.

  63. Hi again Michelle,

    From your writings, it’s obvious that you’re a decent human being, and a decent Christian as well. I appreciate that you have not resorted to the callous cursing and cussing that I get quite often.

    I would just like to bring to your attention, that you’re not compelled to do anything. You always have choices. Anyone or anything that compells you to do something does not have your best interests at heart; I hope you will come to see this.

    You are only compelled to live. I hope you will live it to the best of your ability, always seeking the truth, not accepting everything you are told or asked to accept because it involves some “higher” force or cause. There is no higher force or cause than living your life.

    I implore you to read/explore other sources of information; not only those which seem to confirm your beliefs or those taught to you.

  64. Absolutely Lenny, I have choices and no one has compelled me to do anything…and I have read many many sources and have not been convinced/taught/hammered/manipulated/instructed or suggested as to what I am to believe…This discovery has been on my own…and it’s a great story for another day. I’m puzzled by the fact that if a discovery or inquiry leads to anything other than Christianity, it is accepted and applauded. If the road of inquiry ends at the cross of Christ, it is argued that you need to keep searching until you find the truth..Here’s the big question. What does one do “IF” this is the truth…Just more thoughts,
    Thanks!

    • Ah Michelle, so you compell yourself; interesting!!!

      The question is did your inquiry start on scientific publications and then finally end at the cross, or did it start out elsewhere and end at the cross? I can see how supernatural beliefs can be more comforting than the harsh realities of science and the natural world.

      I find it hard to believe how anyone can not marvel at the natural world through scientific discovery, but accept suernatural explanations for life. But, as a skeptic I find a lot of things hard to believe…

      Why are you willing to settle for “IF” Don’t you want to know with near certainty?

  65. Michelle does make a convincing argument, but only on the surface. Despite the inference that she made her choice willingly, I can only truly believe her if she acknowledges that the Bible is fabricated fiction from Genesis on & if she tells us that she believes the stories in the “Garden of Eden”, she cannot be a rational person & her claim to have relied on her own judgement is questionable. I have made such a post, yet no response from her so my opinion stands.
    Only one’s common sense with which the creator endowed mankind can determine one’s belief or disbelief in the existence of God. But to proclaim that the fairy tales in the Bible are the works or inspirations by God shows a lack of common sense & contempt for his works.

  66. Pingback: Wouldn’t you like to fly before you die? « Lenny Says

  67. Lenny,
    Since Michelle refuses to answer my questions, perhaps she will if you ask the same question. Does she really believe that the Biblical Stories are real or fiction? Such as Adam & Eve in the Garden, the serpent story, the apple story, Noah’s ark, the fact that there were no other females than Eve, how did Cain reproduce without performing incest with his mother (Eve) or Enoch with his grandmother (Eve) or Irad with his great grandmother (Eve). Adam & Eve had daughters many many years later like when they were 150 or 200 years old (Ha Ha)…well he was at least 130 years old. Ask Michelle if she fell for that one & the Ark & Jonah and the whale & Joshua stopping the sun. I feel she has no credibility if she answers yes to any of this nonsense.

    • Hi Scorpioa,

      The tales in the bible are fairly obvious today, as being the sometimes romanticized, sometimes ignorant, sometimes hateful, sometimes inspired and often overly imaginative writings of bronze age man. It has great literary value, but not much else.

      I think we should get past criticizing it’s contents, as it is a complete waste of time.

      What should concern us however, is why anyone would actually take anything contained in the book, at literal value. We have the creationists and even the Young Earth Creationists (YEC’s) who are even more radical in their un-scientific beliefs.

      Thus, I am fascinated by people who confess to being drawn to it. It is most strange, considering the advances in science and the knowledge we have amassed since the bible was compiled.

  68. Dear Scorpioa,
    I am always happy to answer questions but answering question after question I have found, does not necessarily move anyone closer to an honest inquiry about the Bible and Christianity. Honestly, and I say this with all due respect, that is not the real issue. For example, when I began searching for answers in my early twenties, I was more interested in tripping up the questioner in order to get my “Ah Ha moment”, than I was in sincerely trying to receive an honest reply. Many of my answers to accusations about the Bible fail to compel belief because the real issue is not addressed. When people ask questions and I give Biblical answers, verses, historical verification, they will not necessarily be satisfied..because the real question is, “Why would anyone believe in this book, much less follow and stake one’s life on it? So, I would like to say that I completely understand your confusion about the Bible. At first glance it seems like a book that would discourage acceptance. The multiplicity of the miracles and stories seem confusing and hard to swallow. It contains a variety of genres and writing styles. It seems messy and complex, but don’t you think that if it were a quick read book we could master, like a textbook or a novel, it would not challenge us to think, question and possibly see the world from diverse views? Do you think it’s possible that if God wanted to communicate with the people He lovingly created, He could make that happen through the vehicle of inspired writing? So, even if you think it’s baloney, may I challenge you to read it with an openess of mind just for the sake of being well rounded. I’m truly not avoiding your questions. I will answer them, but I care about you and don’t want to throw out answer after answer in a pious manner that wouldn’t really make any difference in anyones life. Thats all I have to say for right now. Just my thoughts and I always appreciate your response..thanks again:)

    • Hi Michelle,

      Consider this from the great George Bernard Shaw:

      No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always
      convinced that it says what he means

  69. Hello Michelle,
    Thank you for your response. Which of course already indicates that you do not care about me, or else you would have given me a precise answer instead of mere convoluted, twisted, meandering rhetoric, which says nothing. I hope you understand that I do believe in a creator, call it (him,her) whatever you may. Common sense & logic dictates. For the same reason, the very same common sense with which I’ve (as you) been endowed as a gift, dictates that the fiction in the Bible is just that.

    I have chosen to appreciate that gift which requires that I fully accept all the silly stories starting from Genesis on as interesting, sometimes exciting parables & fables & no more. With regard to the poetic aspects of the Bible of which there are many, that I can appreciate.

    I refuse to accept nonsense as reality. Obviously you feel content with doing so.
    I find this to be a demonstration of disdain, contempt & MOCKERY of that which you were blessed with residing inside your cranium as well as the giver.

    So as a start, if you care to do so, you may begin with the Garden of Eden, such as the serpent, the apple, the incest & all that other interesting stuff. Oh yes, don’t forget the Ark. That’s your assignment…go to it! And, please no gobbledegook…or I’ll feel slighted.

  70. Michelle: I must assume you reject all the stories & accusations against your Biblical God which you have created, that exist in the old testament. As a matter of fact I know that you do, and that is why you will not and cannot respond without appearing like a hypocrite.

  71. Lenny,

    I am not criticizing the Bible’s contents at all. It is extremeley interesting with a very poetic flair. As you mention,literary value. I find all the stories fascinating.

  72. Hi Scorpioa,
    Not sure if I really understand what you’re asking but I would like to share my story which is my life and is true and honest. First, I was brought up in a church that basically taught that if you kept yourself in line, did good works, etc, etc..God would be pleased with you and you “may” be admitted into Heaven. Along with that, I was taught a “Darth Vadar” view of God rather than the personal loving God I have come to know. In my early twenties, I began to dismiss the religion of my childhood and began a search elsewhere for the meaning for life. For the first time, I began to think seriously about Christianity and concluded that I needed to go to the “grass roots” of this belief. I was introduced to a God who was creative, communicative, loving and sovereign. This God created Adam and Eve, with whom he had an close, loving relationship. That was the original plan for creation. Unfortunately this first man and woman rebelled against God, thinking that on their own, they could provide what was best. God,creating them with a free will, allowed them to reject Him, but the consequences were disastrous and eternal. They were now eternally seperated from God and the created for-God/rebelling against God tension began. This tension is seen through the Old Testament as people rejected Him, thus you have the relationships that were, as you have suggested,..bizarre…The dramatic high point of the Bible is when God, in His love and humanity for those He created, chose to break into History with a Saviour, Jesus, who was the resolution for this tension. Jesus stood up against the religious leaders and rejected the “rule following, works keeping” religion of that time which kept people in bondage. Instead He pointed to himself as the one in whom people could find redemption. His death paid for our sins, and His resurrection validated the completion of that payment..He was the one to whom my restless heart had been searching. The Bible ends with the consummation of the story, in which people relate to God in perfect intimacy. In my life, in 1977 I beleived this truth, not just with “head knowledge”, but with my heart as well. The historical Jesus became real to me and changed my outlook on everything. Despite the person I had been, I know had a geniune love for others. To this day, thirty three years later, there has been nothing remotely comparable to the joy of knowing God through Jesus. So there is a short summary of my life. Please remember, I don’t claim to know it all of course, but I have studied the Bible and will do my best to answer your questions Thank you for your time.

  73. Hi Michelle,
    I understand exactly what you’ve written. I agree with you that all the stories from genesis on are pure fiction written by Man & no connection with “God’s” intent or purpose. . These were fantastic stories concocted by primitive people with creative imaginations spawned by lunacy. That is why the “God” stories in the old testament are pure fantasy. There was no Adam & Eve, there was no serpent, no Noah’s ark…no Lot, no Jonah, no Joshua, no Cain, no Able, nobody living 800 or 900 years. Pure, yet interesting fiction. I agree with that absolutely. Jesus came & challenged all these non-sensical stories about “God” causing floods, killing innocent babies or causing pestilence, or frogs or locusts or turtles falling from the sky. Jesus disavowed all that jibberish. I know now that you don’t believe any of that stuff. But that stuff about Lazarus being raised from the dead or Jesus ascending into heaven or turning water into wine or tossing bread that turned into fish, or walking on water. I doubt whether Jesus himself believes any of that boulder-dash. So, we are finally in agreement. We can both rest now, that a loving understanding has finally ensued.

  74. One more thought,
    I love to have honest, intellectual exchange and conversations about spiritual matters. Engaging in questions about science/Christianity is fruitful and I believe what makes living in this country very unique. I don’t have any problem with anyone rejecting or disagreeing with anything I share in this Blog or my beliefs as a Christian. I believe everyone should be free to share and question in a caring, nonjudgmental community. I will say that I won’t respond to what I believe is a personal attack and I see no point in that kind of dialogue. I will never attack anyone for their statements about where they stand on any issue, so I would appreciate the same respect in return. I hope to continue with this discussion… Have a great night

    • Michelle is a nice person. But the fact that she quotes “stories” from the Bible leaves her open to question. She herself knows that it’s at least 95% fiction, yet despite her proclamation she does attempt to impose her ideas on others, otherwise she would not have responded to the post by Lenny. Let’s just hope & “pray” that she doesn’t fill the minds of innocent children with her lunacy.

  75. Michelle,

    I fail to see where I attacked you personally, but if I gave that opinion by using the wrong verbage, I regret it & willfully withdraw it & I apologize. Re-reading all of the above causes me to believe that you are an honest & a good person & really & truly believe all that you have written above. May God bless you always.

  76. P.S. I was originally motivated to respond to this thread by Lenny some time ago, because of the big religious hoax e-mail that was spewed & spread by some shall we say “ill-nurtured” individuals, which I had received & decided to investigate further. Lenny’s response came up. I felt compelled to support his position. It is events such as this that should inspire all of us, despite our differences of opinions & take these horrific vile cretons to task. That was the start of it all.

  77. I cant believe this e-mail has been going around for this long coz i just got it today!
    well am not a very keen on judging your tough stance about God.i personally believe there must be a supernatural being somewhere who runs things the way they do.However i dont torerate such crazy and ludicrous e-mails at all.mostly i delete them and warn the sender never to send them again coz they’re siply not worthh my time.
    Whether they bring good, bad luck or whatever else they claim to have is none of my business.
    I agree with you on most of your words…keep it up.

  78. My wife and I received this email yesterday from one of her “friends”. It made me so mad I wanted to send a sarcastic reply, but she wouldn’t like that. So I googled some of the text and arrived here. What I wanted to reply was “Gee, I had now idea that god was such a vindictive asshole!”.

    Now I have read all of this thread, I also want to say:
    – Michelle, you seem like a really nice person – a true Christian.
    – Scorpioa – hey, lighten up! Although I agree with most of what you are saying, the way you are saying is got going to win too many people over.
    – Lennymay – great work man. I can’t believe how patient you are with some of the religious nuts you seem to attract. I note they seemed to fade away as the thread went on, so maybe you wore them down…

    • Hello Throgmorton (spin on Throckmorton..the great Gildersleeve?). Hey man…sometimes you just gotta lay it on them. Win ’em over? Why.?.. I ain’t runnin’ for no candidacy office. With “them” folks you just cain’t pull no punches…if’n ya get my drift. But thank’n ya anyway for yer comment. Always appreciated. You do write well.

    • Hi pog throgmorton,

      Thanks, it’s guys like you who provide the encouragement, that keeps me going. Anyway, I enjoy debating with people who are inclined to explore ideas, even if they’re totally opposed to my line of thinking.

      We can all learn something from someone else…

  79. Michelle is a nice person. But the fact that she quotes “stories” from the Bible leaves her open to question. She herself knows that it’s at least 95% fiction, yet despite her proclamation she does attempt to impose her ideas on others, otherwise she would not have responded to the post by Lenny. Let’s just hope & “pray” that she doesn’t fill the minds of innocent children with her lunacy.

  80. Thanks for the feedback. I have found over the last few days that my mind keeps dwelling on this email, so I thought I’d try to put into words exactly what I find so ville and offensive about it.

    I think it comes down to two things: the menacing tone, and the depraved version of god that it envisions. The email is clearly threatening, trying to play on the minds of any who might be on the road to freeing themselves of religious superstition. Just not the sort of thing that you should send a friend.

    But even worse is the hateful god that the author (and by extension, anyone who forwards the email) seems to believe in. The idea, for example, that god somehow ordered a “hit” on John Lennon for something he said more than a decade ago is surely revolting to just about anyone, especially those who are familiar with Lennon’s life and music. The implication is that Lennon’s murder was a good thing (because it was god getting revenge). Surely only the sickest of minds could actually believe that.

    But this is the only logical interpretation. Say you wanted to believe both that Mark Chapman was doing evil by killing Lennon, and also that Lennon’s murder was divine retribution. You can’t. The stock answer that Christianity has for why there is evil in the world, is that it is the price we pay for god giving us free will. But if Lennon’s murder was ordered by god, then Chapman didn’t have any free will, he was (literally) on a mission from god. So therefore Lennon’s murder wasn’t evil (it can’t be evil to do god’s will). God has decided on this occasion to waive one of the ten commandments (it’s his perogative, I guess) to settle a personal score. What a load of tripe. Question for the believers: what is going to happen to Mark Chapman when he dies? Straight to hell, or up to heaven for a high-five with god?

    By the way, Betrand Russell (probably the best known and most vocal athiest of the first part of the twentieth century) lived to be 98…

    • Lenny,

      I feel compelled to respond to your last sentence.

      It should be obvious of course, that God doesn’t want atheists running around in heaven, so he lets them live down here for a long time. The “believers” are the ones that God wants, to serve him, so they die at an early age. N’est ce pas?

      • So that must mean all those death row psychopaths and gang bangers are all really good Christians?! How is this logical?!

        • Hello Dawn,

          It means that if you want to remain on earth a long time, become an atheist. If you want to die at an early age & get to heaven quickly, become a believer. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out. It’s pure unadulterated logic.

      • Hi Scorpioa,

        Assuming there was really a god in a heaven somewhere, I think it would be pretty presumptuous of him/her/it to expect me to want to enter said heaven to serve him/her/it.

        I think the decent thing to do would be to ask my permission rather than demanding my eternal servitude. It is claimed regularly that he/she/it gave us “free will” so it begs the question, what for?

      • I guess there must be a “language barrier” as I would use a completely different term for your “unadulterated logic” here ;)-. So if given the choice, I would become an ax murder in Texas and be executed within a year of incarceration instead of taking the chances that God might want me to come to heaven early and waiting for him to strike me down or rapture me– at least I will get an execution date — God doesn’t provide that to his servants even though he is supposed to be omniscient. I guess it’s “unadulterated logic” that being an ax murderer on death row is better than being a christian wondering when that bolt of stray lightning might strike.

        • How about “pure, non-imitation, genuine”? Besides “within a year of incarceration” by all current standards is considered…….”early”.

  81. Also, while I’m on a roll. Scorpioa, let me clarify my earlier comment. I believe there are basically three kinds of Christians:

    1. Sincere, well-intentioned believers. These are basically good people who take comfort from the idea of a personal god, find inspiration in the Christian message, and don’t bother anyone else with their faith.

    2. Seekers, or those who are continually looking (through dialogue with others, reading and personal reflection) to deepen/broaden their spriritual understanding. It’s worth talking to people like this.

    3. Proselytizers, who are looking to either convert or otherwise attack, threaten, belittle, etc non-believers. This is the enemy.

    The first two types, I think we should be nice to. The third type should get a kind of proportionate response. Because the email is so revolting, I personally think it’s fine to go on the attack. If someone is minding their own business, or earnestly seeking to engage in the quest to learn and grow, then a gentler response is called for.

    As a further consideration – a common objection to atheism from believers is without god, there is no ethics. From this flows the belief that athiests are bad people. I think it’s fun to prove them wrong.

  82. I came across this blog after receiving the aforementioned email and started conducting my own research into the people mentioned. As an IT Director / CIO, I see as much, or more, spam, malware, and hoax email than most people. I have also done some computer programming in my career – and you absolutiely cannot be a good programmer if you can’t think in a very logical manner, so yes, I believe I am very logical. And yes, I am a strong Christian that believes in God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, and that the Bible is factual – although there are some human transcripting errors that have been identified. Before you take “human transcripting errors” too far though, the errors that have been PROVEN as factual (since Lenny likes to deal in facts only), are those types of errors that have nothing to do with faith or proving or disproving another fact recorded in the Bible (which by the way, was written by men – some of which were considered to be very intellectual for their time), but in the transcribing of words such as “an” for “a”, or “puddle” for “pool”.

    Lenny, you and all other non-believers are certainly entitled and free to remain as such. Some of the responses from other “Christians” have been a bit off-base – at least in my opinion – but many others have been right on target. Is God (yes, that’s with a capital “G”) a vengeful God? He says that He is – (Romans 12:19 “Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.”). It’s not for me, nor anyone else, to condemn you – it’s God’s right. Although I didn’t read the entire blog (got a little tired of reading a lot of the same things over and over), I did read where one person – I *think* it was a female – that paraphrased Romans 14:11 “For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.”. Do I believe this – absolutely and without reservation.

    Lenny, you have repeatedly stated you wanted facts. I’m very limited in the space here to go into scientific research that PROVES the Bible as being factual, but you also mentioned that you would be willing to do some research on your own – therefore, may I recommend you read a book that was written by a former atheist by the name of Lee Strobel? The name of the book is “The Case for the Real Jesus”. Here is Mr. Strobel’s website: http://www.leestrobel.com/ which contains a lot of other information as well (I’m sure you can find the book on other book websites, such as amazon.com, or maybe even for free at your friendly neighborhood library).

    Unlike someone else that posted here, I would prefer to not post my personal email, so I will check back here over the next few days to see if you’ve responded to this entry and whether or not you would like to strike up a personal dialogue after you’ve read Lee’s book. If you would, then we could work out the email details at that time. I will NOT press you to do this, but leave it entirely up to you.

    I leave you with this – when I was on active duty with the U. S. Navy (yes, Christians can most certainly serve their country in the military), I had the privilege of being a part of the Department Commander being relieved when he transferred. The outgoing Commander was super organized, everyting in it’s place, every piece of paper filed and labeled. He had a sign posted over his desk that stated “A cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind.”. The incoming Commander (for those not familiar with the military, a Commander is a fairly high ranking officer in the Navy) was just the opposite. As he began to assume command, he started going through the out-going Commander’s files and tossing out old papers, message traffic, etc. He then noticed the sign, took it down, modified it, and put it back up. How did he modify it? When he put it back up, it now read “If a cluttered desk is the sign of a cluttered mind, what is an empty desk a sign of?”. The out-going Commander happened to walk in, see what was going on with the shredding of his old paperwork and then read the sign. He walked out almost crying. WHAT’S THE POINT OF THIS? WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THIS DISCUSSION? We ALL need to ask ourselves – are our minds like that cluttered desk, with no room for anything else to find it’s way in? Or, is our mind like the empty desk, with nothing able to be applied and considered? My thoughts on this? How about a combination? A desk (mind) that has clutter (information and beliefs), but also has clean space on it (an area to accept new information and work on it – just like new paperwork “arriving” on our desk that needs to be analyzed, absorbed, and worked on)? I’ll leave it at that.

    • Hi Ron,

      There are some very intelligent people who believe some very strange things. Even the most logical people succumb to logical fallacies. I don’t dispute that you are logical and probably highly intelligent; however claiming so still does not make the bible any more factual.

      Your belief that “every knee will bow to god” will not make it a reality either. Any entity (real or imagined)demanding servitude will not get it from me – period. In fact most people I know consider this presumptuousness, extremely insulting.

      I have written about Lee Strobel many times and have been referred to him often by believers such as yourself. Lee is just another religious apologist whose work has been debunked by both skeptics and fellow-believers alike. Juss consider this blog post about Lee’s work, by a fervent Christian:
      Lee Strobel: Biased Apologist or Champion of Intellectual Honesty

      Finally while I appreciate the trouble you have taken with the mind-table-clutter metaphor, I need to emphasise that my mind is indeed open to new information and ideas, but any that is of a superstitious or supernatural nature, will be be given the skeptical treatment. As someone famous (the name escapes me for now) once said, and I paraphrase, “have an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.”

      • Lenny,

        I believe you are a very intelligent person, which is not surprising as many intelligent people I know have let their intelligence get in the way of their belief (I do NOT mean that as insulting, just a statement of fact based on others I know personally). I am confused by people like you that are intelligent and logical though, as I believe (no, I’m not bragging here) I am as well. When you look at God, creation, the “big bang”, and so on – it just doesn’t make any logical sense to me to believe that all of this – the entire universe and life itself – just happened by accident. I don’t remember the exact measurement, but scientists have proven that if the earth were to shift out of orbit by just a few miles, life would cease to exist. Is this just an accident that happened? Why did mankind “evolve” like it did and other animals didn’t (yes, animals have evolved somewhat, just not into an intelligent being). Using intelligence and logic, how could the universe (and I use “universe” to mean everything possible that we and and cannot see) be created from absolutely nothing? Where did that first atom or planet or cosmic dust come from that exploded into all these millions of stars, planets, and galaxies? “That does not compute” Lenny. We always make something from something else. I *think* I know what your argument – or at least part of it – is going to be – “Then where did your God come from?” I can’t answer that – no one can. It’s mystified man from the beginning of time – and it’s a waste of time to try and figure it out (IMHO). However, when I die, then He may deem me worthy of an explanation of that question – or maybe not. As for bowing down – there are some things you and I just don’t have any control over. You can say it as often as you want to, for as long as you want to, that you are NOT going to breath another breath. Unless you do something physical to stop your breathing (death, putting something over your mouth & nose, etc), then you will in fact breath. I’ve heard of children (and I’m sure you have as well) that hold their breath until they pass out – then they start breathing again. I believe that when you die, you WILL bow before Him and confess His name. Even satan knows Him and admits who He is, so I’m sure you will as well.

        As for those that criticize Lee Strobel, I don’t know for sure, but I’d be willing to bet that there isn’t a book that’s been written concerning a non-fictional topic (I’m not talking about novels, short stories, etc) that hasn’t been criticized by others. Just look at your own blog – pretty much everyone that’s posted has criticized others – and this is just a blog. So reading how others “debunk” a writer is pretty much what’s happening here – one opinion being expressed as being correct over another. The big difference is, when we die – then we’ll know – and it will be too late for those that didn’t recognize Him for who He is. This isn’t a video game where you can put another quarter in or hit the reset button to play again – once it’s over, it’s over on this earth. After life here, then it’s eternity. You said all the “fun” people (may not be exact word you used, I just don’t have time to go back and look it up right now) will be in hell, so that’s where you want to be. I’m really, truly sorry you feel that way. Hell is going to be your worst nightmare, 10,000 times over, and it will never, ever end. Bowing before God & Jesus (who by the way are one & the same) where there is no pain and no saddness over eternal pain & misery? You betcha I’ll bow before Him.

        • Hi again Ron,

          “…as many intelligent people I know have let their intelligence get in the way of their belief…”

          I find this statement most curious and actually a dead give-away for why religious thought endures, in the age of enlightenment.

          You are signifying that beliefs can exist without any form of intelligent thought process. Taking this statement to its logical conclusion would mean that we have to take the beliefs of mentally challenged people seriously, because they (the beliefs) are not formed as a consequence of intelligent, rational thought or enquiry. Now please don’t get me wrong – I’m not implying that religious beliefs are the result of mental deficiency, just that (as you have revealed) a persons beliefs can be formed without any form of rational or logical or intelligent thought process.

          I can assure you however, that all my beliefs are the direct result of intelligent, rational thought processes. It can be tedious and tiring putting everything under the microscope and maintaining skepticism at all costs, but it is so rewarding…

          With reference to how the universe was formed out of “nothing”, even though we don’t know how it all started for sure, we do not need to offer up supernatural explanations because it makes us comfortable. Not knowing is not a bad thing; we will never know a lot of things, so get used to it. We do however try to find out by using the scientific method. It may not produce immediate results, but at least when it does produce results, we can be pretty certain that the result is believable because it has been subjected to absolute scrutiny.

          I fail to see the relevence of your air analogy (it’s been tried before by the way). Air can be scientifically studied and the constituent components (hydrogen, etc.) can be proved to be present by inference and other methods; you don’t have to see the actual components to know it’s there. You cannot subject god to the same scrutiny.

          Everyone and everything is subject to scrutiny and criticism. Neither Lee Strobel nor any religion is immune from scrutiny just because they claim some sort of imaginary, unprovable higher authority. Anyone and anything claiming immunity from criticism has something to hide. Man has bestowed the power of exemption from scrutiny upon his creation religion, because he was afraid that his poor design would be found wanting.

          Perhaps I will go to hell, but you know what? I would prefer that 10,000,000 times to some power-mad, invisible deity who demands my unquestionable veneration.

    • Hello Ron,
      I read your post with interest. You sound like a rational person from the way you write. However, by virtue of the fact that you believe the story of Adam & Eve, the serpent who spoke standing upright, Noah’s ark, Jonah, Joshua, Cain, Able, people living for 800 or 900 years, frogs, locusts, turtles
      falling from the sky, Lazarus being raised from the dead, Jesus turning water into wine, bread turning into fish…which Jesus himself would have disavowed as fiction…then all that you’ve written is totally nullified & voided. I don’t think that even God believes those stories & “wives tales” (which is what they are).

      • Scorpioa,

        From reading many of your posts, you seem to think you are psychic or omniscient – either that or you just presume to know what others “know” – as you have quite often said (paraphrased) “as you already know” and “I don’t think that even God believes” – BTW, you are a very, very special person to know what Jesus would have disavowed (unless you happen to be 2,000 years old and had walked and talked with Him, which if you did, then you wouldn’t be writing what you’re writing). The fact of the matter is, you don’t know what “I already know” and the Bible was inspired by God, therefore, yes, He does “believe”. As for what’s fiction and what’s real, well – it’s just as easy for me and other Christians to make the blanket statement that what you believe is pure fiction – therefore, any intelligence you might display in your posts is “totally nullified”. Can you prove to me that air exists? Have you seen it? Have you felt it? No, wind is not air. Scientist say that there is in fact air, because that’s what we breath – but that’s just what they say. I don’t believe it’s really air that we breath because I’ve never actually seen or felt it. I *think* it’s something else other than air. Kind of silly isn’t it? The point is, going back and forth making those types of accusations are just senseless. You might as well be posting “My daddy can beat your daddy up. Nanny, nanny, boo, boo”. ???? Pretty much all I’ve heard from you is the same rhetoric over and over.

        I actually believe in evolution – just not the kind you & others might believe in. I believe man and the world has “evolved” over the years and is in fact, still evolving. Mankind doesn’t look exactly the same as we did 500 or 1,000 years ago – we’ve gotten taller, features have changed, etc. Plants have evolved as well. As for the “big bang” theory, I *think* there is some scientific merit to SOME of it. It’s actually feasible that when God created the heavens and earth, that the process in which He did so was in such a manner that the expansion and “big bang” happened much as those that proclaim the theory say it did. The one question atheists and “big bang” proclaimers can never ever answer is …… where did the material for the “big bang” come from? There is no scientist in history that has ever created something from absolute nothing. Here’s a little story I heard awhile back – and yes, I readily admit it’s a “story”, but one that has meaning.

        Some scientists approached God one day and told Him they didn’t need Him anymore. They said they could heal the sick, create new plants by grafting 2 or more species together, and we can even clone animals and people. God asked them if they could create life. They “Yes”, we can clone people or “make” someone in a test tube. God asked them if they could “create” life – not clone someone. The scientists again said “yes”, we can create man just like You did – from dust. God asked them to demonstrate this and they said sure, where’s the dust (remember, they approached God, so they weren’t one earth where they could get dust). God’s response? Create your own dust, which of course they couldn’t do – no man can create something from nothing.

        As for wives tales – why should anyone believe your statement that they are “wives tales” instead of actual facts recorded by men inspired by God to record them?

        The bottom line is that there are those living on this earth that will never, ever believe while they are alive. Just as many of the Jews who actually witnessed some of the miracles of Jesus – who by the way has been verified as a real person by non-Christian historians such as Josephus – refused to believe, there are still those today that refuse to believe. Trying to convince this type of person is virtually impossible. As one of the earlier posts stated, Matthew 10:14 “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.” Jesus Himself recognized that there were those that would deny Him to the very end and that those that were spreading the word about Him were not to spend unlimited time trying to convince them otherwise, but to move on to those that were receptive of the truth. I can see where this blog and “discussion” would be never-ending. A teacher can tell me 2 + 2 = 4 and I can say, “I don’t believe that” and it could go on and on and on and on …………. That this blog has been going on for so long with you & Lenny, for the most part, stating your stance and ridiculing belivers over and over and over shows that there is no real intent to do any type of serious study or dialogue – only to harass and attempt to cause confusion.

        Should you want to get into a serious study and discussion, I’m open to that with either you or Lenny, but I am not going to post back and forth here any longer as it serves no purpose. I know, you both will probably call me “chicken” or something else similar – and that’s OK. You have the right to your opinion and I served 22 years in the Navy, in part, to preserve our freedom of speech – yep, even for non-belivers 🙂 Since posts on here come to my email, just let me know if you are interested in something serious or not. If you are, we can open a dialogue apart from this blog.

        • Hello Ron,

          Why would I call you “chicken”.?You gave a beautiful & heart felt response on your positions. But, as it is with most responses of those of your leanings, you skirt the issues. You speak in circles as though you were hiding something. Why can’t you just come out & say that you believe that those events which I specifically outlined from Adam & Eve, the serpent on thru Noah, Jonah, Joshua etc. are factual. Tell me what person was there to record those events. You not only inadverdantly deceive others, but you deceive yourself. Why are you so reluctant to stating that you do believe those stories? You won’t of course & I don’t blame you. You would present yourself as being ridiculous. I hope you are reading this straight. I again repeat…& I want to know who “recorded” those events (above) as you claim.
          If you’ve read my posts, then you would know how many times of how many people I posed that specific question. None has replied. They refuse, because they do not really deep down believe that which they profess to believe.
          Also, by deception you ask for proof…You wrote:“I already know” and the Bible was inspired by God, therefore, yes, He does “believe”. As for what’s fiction and what’s real, well – it’s just as easy for me and other Christians to make the blanket statement that what you believe is pure fiction – therefore, any intelligence you might display in your posts is “totally nullified”. Can you prove to me that air exists? Have you seen it? Have you felt it? No, wind is not air. Scientist say that there is in fact air, because that’s what we breath”
          You intentionally mislead in what you’ve written above…because the burden of proof is on YOU!
          Not the other way around. You make ridiculous claims. They ask you to prove it…not to yourself…that means nothing to anyone but yourself. A person who is drunk has delerious tremors & sees many things that others do not & he really believes he sees them. A person who is sober will not see them. The burden of proof is on you & you know it & yet you attempt to TWIST things around. This my friend is deception. I will never attempt to try to convert anyone to my way of thinking. On the other hand you do simply by your response to this post. I await a straight, honest & truthful answer. Jesus would expect that of you.

        • Hi Ron,

          I wish you would stay on as I arrived late to this thread and it seems to me that it is running out of interesting people to debate the believer’s side of the argument. I hope you have the energy for one last question, which I ask in a spirit of genuine curiosity.

          You make use of both the argument from design and the “prime mover argument” to argue for the existence of a god (I prefer to use lower case). Let’s assume for the time being that god created the world. My question is: which god?

          You identify yourself as a Christian, so I infer that you do not believe in the teachings of, say, the Koran (tell me if I’m assuming too much). The world’s great and small religions, past and present, provide a myriad of competing and conflicting claims about the nature of the deity/deities. On what basis did/do you (or for that matter, can anyone) make a choice about which one to believe?

          Just planting a seed here – might it not be somehow related to you being born and growing up in a Christian country?

  83. Scorpioa,

    I thought I had provided a straight answer, however, to make it very clear – yes, I believe every event (story as you put it) actually happened as recorded in the Bible, from the creation of Adam & Eve, to Satan taking on the form of a serpent and deceiving Eve, to the flood. Who wrote it? Actually, Moses composed the book of Genesis based on the writings of those that came before him, all the way back to Adam. Adam could write? Yes, I believe he could, not based strictly on faith, but also on scientific archeological excavations in the Middle East. These excavations found a form of writing called “cuneiform” that dates back to 3500 BC (which dates back to the time of Adam). The writings are on clay tablets that record events during the time the writer lived – thus, Adam is an eye-witness of the events in the garden of Eden and recorded them, passed them down through his family, until Moses – inspired by God – comprised these writings into the book we now call Genesis.
    I don’t understand your comment about me “twisting” facts nor what “ridiculous claims” you say I made – what did I “twist”? The part about air? Why is the burden of proof on me? The burdern of proving air actually exists is on you, since you only believe what science can prove. I do believe air exists – it’s called faith. Although I was not there to witness it, I believe man has walked on the moon (I don’t know how old you are, but it wasn’t long after it happened that there was a lot of accusations that claimed the event was staged by NASA & the government). As I’m sure you know, faith is believing in something you can’t reach out and touch or believing something is going to happen or did actually happen when you didn’t personally witness it (I’m sure someone else might be able to give a more thorough definition than this one), so it’s kind of like getting on an airplane for the first time to fly to the South Pole (I picked that destination because it’s one I’ve never been to). When you buy your ticket, get on the plane, sit down, and buckle your seatbelt, you are demonstrating you have FAITH that the plane is in fact going to get off the ground, stay in the air, not crash, and eventually end up at the South Pole. I’ve “bought my ticket” (been baptized), gotten” on the plane” (was added to the church, I didn’t “join” – that’s a misconception by many people, even those that call themselves Christian), “sat down” (I do in fact teach Bible classes and have preached at small congregations), “buckled my seatbelt” (I’m in it for the long haul – until death), and expect to end up at the “South Pole” (heaven) one day. You and the others that don’t believe in God do actually display faith in many ways. You have faith in the results of scientists that have been reported when you weren’t there to witness the event, you have faith in historical writings (although this is more selective faith as many I have talked with choose to believe one historical writing while dismissing another as not being true just because it doesn’t record history they way they think it happened), you actually have “faith” that God doesn’t exist.
    As I wrote in my last entry – going round and round saying the same things over and over – “prove it”, “I don’t believe it”, “you’re wrong”, “your statements are ridiculous” and so on are pointless and nothing more than argumentative – like 2 kids in the playground shouting at each other – and I do not desire to participate in that type of communication.
    I believe I have been very direct and to the point in this email with reference to your challenge, but just in case it was missed:
    – “Why can’t you just come out & say that you believe that those events which I specifically outlined from Adam & Eve, the serpent on thru Noah, Jonah, Joshua etc. are factual.” Scorpioa – I believe the events which you specifically outlined from Adam & Eve, the serpent on thru Noah, Jonah, Joshua etc are indeed factual events recorded in the Bible.
    – “Tell me what person was there to record those events.” (I addressed this above)
    – “You not only inadverdantly deceive others, but you deceive yourself. Why are you so reluctant to stating that you do believe those stories? You won’t of course & I don’t blame you.” I don’t deceive anyone about anything, I readily admit my faith and belief in the Bible, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, nor do I deceive myself. Reluctant – not at all, I believe in all of my posts I have openly admitted my faith.
    – “You would present yourself as being ridiculous.” There’s nothing ridiculous about me – except when I’m playing with my grandchildren, then I can be a bit ridiculous. When I was younger, I though those that don’t believe in God were “ridiculous” and “stupid”, now I’m just saddened by it and look for an opportunity to discuss in a serious, non-confrontational manner my faith. If the person refuses to listen or gets argumentative or disagrees, that’s their choice and I move on. I do NOT force myself on people, but do make myself available to those that are truly interested.
    – “If you’ve read my posts, then you would know how many times of how many people I posed that specific question. None has replied. They refuse, because they do not really deep down believe that which they profess to believe.” I believe I’ve responded to that specific question (which I *think* is either who wrote Genesis or do I really believe the events as recorded being true)
    – “You intentionally mislead in what you’ve written above…because the burden of proof is on YOU!
    Not the other way around. You make ridiculous claims. They ask you to prove it…not to yourself…that means nothing to anyone but yourself. A person who is drunk has delerious tremors & sees many things that others do not & he really believes he sees them. A person who is sober will not see them. The burden of proof is on you & you know it & yet you attempt to TWIST things around. This my friend is deception. I will never attempt to try to convert anyone to my way of thinking.” This is the part that’s “my daddy can beat your daddy up”. Why is the burden of proof on me? Why shouldn’t you prove there is no God? As for drunks – I don’t drink, not because I believe it’s wrong in and of itself, but for some of the reasons you mention in this statement – what it can do to your mind and how stupid most people act when they get drunk. What’s so fun about puking all over yourself or on other people and then waking up and not remembering what did or said the night before? Twisting things around? Sorry friend, it’s you that continually twists my statements around so you can attack them. You state “I will never attempt to try to convert anyone to my way of thinking”, and yet you have posted time after time after time trying on this blog trying to convince Christians and believers they are wrong and you are right – isn’t that attempting to try to convert someone to your way of thinking? You appear to be angry about something and have put up a major deflector to try and deflect truths back on the person as if they were false, then make false statements yourself. Sit back and think about everything you’ve posted and then ask youself – have I tried to convert (which simply means to change someone’s way of thinking) to my way of thinking that God doesn’t exist?

  84. Hello Ron,
    Nice try, but if you feel better about it that’s OK. You might be interested in the response I’ve given to Throgmorton, although it was addressed to you.
    Gos bless you.

  85. Pog,

    Yes, I do grow weary of senseless arguing, but not of talking honestly and openly in a manner that’s intended to be truthful and open dialogue that’s sincere.

    No, I do not believe in the Koran and yes, I do believe there are many that call themselves Christians that do not fully understand the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. There are many different “Christian” groups in the world today – there are actually over 2,000 religions in the world. Many of these are easy to identify as following the teachings of a man rather than of Jesus. When there is a contradiction in what the Bible teaches and the examples provided with what is being practiced, then there’s something wrong.

    A couple of examples:
    – one faith teaches it’s wrong for certain members to get married and this is not a teaching of the Bible. Paul mentions one time that he “…wish you were like me, unmarried, …”. This is a comment made by Paul that’s taken out of context, and to use Scorpioa’s word, twisted to mean something it’s not saying. Paul “wishes”, not “commands”
    – I was talking with 2 “elders” of another religion one evening (we agreed to use only the Bible to study with, not outside books) and started asking them questions about their religion and why they believed some of the things they believed. When they responded, I said “Let’s look at what the Bible has to say about that”. After about 2 hours, one of them began saying “I didn’t know that” and “I didn’t know that’s what the Bible said about that”. The other immediately said “We have another appointment to go to” and they got up and left – it was after 10:00PM. One of the things we looked at together was the qualifications of an elder (Titus & I Timothy). Neither one of them fit the qualifactions and yet they said they were elders in their church.

    Why the Bible and not the Koran or other books that direct other religions? Research into the history and facts of both the Bible and those other books. The Koran was written by someone that was discontent with his life, went out to a cave for an extended period of time, and came back with the basics of the Koran saying that Allah had spoken to him. This sounds a lot like Joseph Smith who said God had spoken to him under a tree, so he founded the Mormon religion. Neither one had witnesses to the events nor any historical recordings of activities. There are many, many witnesses to Jesus’ & the Apostles’ miracles and activities. Non-Christian historians have written about them – like Josephus for one. The evidence I have uncovered in my research does nothing other than prove to me over and over that Jesus was in fact the Son of God, He died on the cross, and He rose from the grave after 3 days. There is no other “religious founder” that can make that claim. I spent hours researching many different religions when I was teaching a class and found many of the Greek/Roman gods had copied parts of the life of Jesus, but what’s recorded in the Bible about Jesus is original. This is what has confirmed for me that there is only one true and living God – all of the others are false gods that man has made up. Allah? That’s a Hebrew name for God. Yahweh (actually spelled YWH) is God’s name. Taking His name and then altering the way He wants to be worshipped is very presumptuous of man. Just because you don’t like something about God, doesn’t give us the right to “create Him in our image” – which too many people have done, including many that call themselves Christians. Don’t like what the Bible says about homosexuality? Change it. Don’t like what the Bible says about adultery? Change it. Kind of like what Obama, Reid, and Pelosi are trying to do with our Constitution – they don’t like it so they want to change it.

    Does my belief have something to do with where I was born & raised – absolutely! I don’t understand why I was born where I was nor that my parents were believers, but I’m so thankful to God that I was. If you trace the Israel and Arab nations back (which I think you have already done), you will find they at one time were of the same family and worshipped the same true God. What happened? Very long story as I think you probably know. Worshipping God was much, much different prior to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Animal sacrifices were required, priests were part of the ceremony, certain days were set aside for certain sacrifices and rituals, etc. Both Israelites and Arabs, before the split, worshipped the same way – at least when they weren’t worshipping false gods like Baal and the Egyptian gods, like the golden calf. When Jesus came and died, he wiped out the old law and implemented the new covenant. He said “Upon this rock I wil build MY CHURCH”. His one and only church – not 2,000 churches or religions. He also said, “I am the way” – no one else, no other teachings than His.

    So why believe the Bible and that Jesus is the only way? Again, I’ve researched and studied and have yet to find proof of anything recorded in the Bible as being false (now, in my studies I’ve also found that there have been some very minor inaccuracies in non-faith binding words – as I’ve mentioned before – words such as “a” for “an” or “pool” for “puddle” – but these are non-faith changing words. For example, if I were call you and say that I was being delayed due to a puddle in my kitchen that I had fix, would the full meaning of the message be changed if you were to tell someone else “Ron’s been delayed due to a pool of water in his kitchen”? – of course not, same message, different word for one item). Many believe that all you have to do is confess that Jesus is the Christ and you will be saved (a teaching of many “Christian” religions). This is completely wrong – the Bible teaches that you must not only confess, but repent (turn away from sin), and be baptized (which is the total immersion in water, not sprinkling) before you can be saved. Repent does NOT mean you become perfect in your life, only that you do your best to not sin and to live in accordance with God’s Word – the blood of Jesus washes our sins away. The sprinkling of babies is also not in the Bible – how can a baby have sin or repent or confess? The Bible also teaches us that we are “all priests” (those that have been baptized in accordance with the Word) and can approach the throne of God – we don’t need anyone on earth to be our go-between and no one on earth can forgive our sins – only God can do that (and God does not live on this earth in human form any longer – only while Jesus walked the earth for 33 years).

    I’m afraid I may have given you much more than you asked for, but when I get going on this, it’s hard for me to stop – but stop I must as I have a conference call to make in a few minutes. I’m sure I’ve opened the door with you for further debate and questions, which I’m very open to as long as it stays civil and non-confrontational – debate and open discussion is good when it leads to further study. Do I know it all? NOPE! NADA! NEVER! I study hard and learn something new every time I do study. Have I changed my mind about some things? Yep – but not that there is only one true God and that Jesus was His son on earth and is my saviour.

    • Hello Ron,
      That is about as straight an answer that one can expect. You certainly have put Throgmorton in his place & I would assume that the question he asked is a stock question that has a stock answer by the most inexperienced robotic 2 year old neophyte that’s held in his back pocket.
      The only problem of course is that by your “confession” you have perhaps shown disdain & contempt for the brain that God gave you…which in essence is a mockery of God. This is what the thread was all about right? You read the post by Lenny & challenged it because you tried to impose your beliefs on others, right? Otherwise you would not have responded to it in the first place.
      You wrote: ” found many of the Greek/Roman gods had copied parts of the life of Jesus,” See now that’s making you a bad boy…because it’s the opposite that’s true. Shame Shame! Greek Gods were resurrected before Jesus. The old ladies who went to the tomb & ran out screaming “he has risen…he has risen” were a bunch of old crazy Jewish ladies loaded with superstitious beliefs. They needed attention so they concocted the entire story. Dodn’t you ever see Fiddler on the Roof?Crazy stories was the only form of entertainment in those days (they had no TV)…so the more outlandish & ridiculous the story, the more attention was gotten…like the example you yourself used…”see ,my dog is bigger than yours …my father is stronger than yours”..you yourself have confirmed this
      Jesus wasn’t the only one resurrected…See Kings I & 2. See what I mean it’s all fake! Why do you think God is sending floods & quakes & huricanes at an unbelievable rate in the last several years. He’s very upset with people like you with your drunkenness. One does not need drink to be drunk. Any mind altering substance does the same thing…crazy religions (they’re all crazy) cause mind altering effects as well. See what I mean? May God bless you so that you can see the light & drop all this hocus pocus Christian Anderson type fairy tales.

    • Hi Ron,

      Thanks for your response: I have no doubt that it is genuine and is the result of much study and reflection. Speaking as an atheist, there is so much to disagree with that it’s hard to know where to start. I don’t want to offend, or be a bore, but I do want to respond. So here goes.

      Why not begin by returning your compliment and stating what I believe. Well, for a start, I don’t believe that there is, was or ever will be any one source of absolute truth. As a rule I believe that the best way to learn about the world is to observe it rather than poking about in old books. I believe that the scientific method is the only reliable tool we have for building meaningful knowledge about anything. I believe that there is no god and that no genuine and unbiased inquiry could lead a person to believe that there is.

      Further, I believe that there is no basis in logic or evidence to make the step from a generalised belief in god to belief in any particular religion (I have read your post and know you disagree – however all religions have these sort of arguments: they are a self preservation mechanism). I believe that for the vast majority of people religious belief is absorbed from their surrounding culture, and in most cases just comes down to how they are brought up (if we had been born 4000 years ago in Egypt we’d probably be arguing about Horus or Ra).

      I could try to pick holes in your post. For example, I don’t think many biblical scholars believe that Moses actually wrote the Pentateuch any more (part of the problem is that it describes his own death and funeral). Josephus mentions Jesus, sure, but there is a convincing case that this passage was tampered with by later Christians. And the claims of Joseph Smith and Mohammed are outlandish ad ludicrous, I agree, but more so than those of, say, Moses (although I’m sure you’ll beg to differ).

      And miracles? Well, Jesus died and was resurrected, Mohammed flew to Jerusalem, Guatama Buddha walked on water, Zeus turned into a swan, Moses turned staffs into snakes (so did Pharoah’s magicians) and David Copperfield made the Statue of Liberty disappear. I don’t worship any of them. When it comes to religious claims, miracles are a dime a dozen, or at least they used to be (isn’t it funny that the more we learn about science the fewer miracles there seem to be, David Copperfield excepted?). Jesus’ is not the only claimed death and resurrection, or the only claimed virgin birth, nor are his miracles the only ones to which there were supposedly witnesses. As far as I can see, none of the claims of Christianity are particularly unique or are any better substantiated than the others. It seems to me that the only way to reach the conclusion that they are is to argue backwards (i.e. to start with a personal belief in Christ and to look for evidence that justifies it).

      I could go on, but I fear that each point of contention represents a rabbit hole down which we could all disappear, all the time moving ever further from the original point of Lenny’s thread. As Lenny has said before, most of these arguments are well-known so there’s no point in flogging them to death here.

      Plus, why dwell on our differences when we have so much in common? After all, it would seem that we both believe that the Muslims are wrong, the Jews are wrong, the Catholics are wrong, not to mention the Protestants, Greek Orthodox, Hindus, Sikhs, etc. As you say, there are over 2000 religions in the world. You believe that all but one of them is wrong, and I merely go one step further. In statistical terms it’s a difference of less than 0.05% – hardly worth quibbling about, really.

      So perhaps we should return to the original point of this thread, because here I think we might have something worth disagreeing about. Getting back to the original email, may I ask: do you believe that god caused the death of John Lennon, or any of the others that were mentioned, as revenge for being mocked? Personally, I can hardly imagine a belief more monstrous.

    • Hello Ron, c.c to Throgmorton: Of course Ron believes that God got even with Lennon. Ron also believes Lev. 25:44 states that he may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, “Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.”
      Ron believes — Exodus 35:2. “2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD . Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.” The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Is Ron morally obligated to kill him himself?
      Ron believes he can sell his daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. 7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
      Ron believes that a poor deformed hunchback or dwarf or child born a cripple is a profanity in the eyes of God. Lev. 21:20 “20
      He believes Lev. 19:27. 27 “‘Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard… How do we kill them? Is stoning OK with Ron?
      Ron believes in stoning people to death for planting their field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material Lev. 19:19 19
      He believes anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord (Atheists) shall be put to death.Lev. 24:10-16. “10
      Ron belives in burning people to death:Lev. 20:14 14 ” If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.”
      John 15:6 NIVIf anyone does not remain (believe) in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. Jesus mandated burning non-believers.
      The church has a good record when it comes to setting people on fire. Just can’t get enough of that good stuff.
      He believes in cursing plants & trees for not bearing fruit: MT 21:19
      He believes that Jesus came to earth not to send peace but the sword MT 10:34
      .But Ron also does not believe in going to church…Jesus has disdain for those who pray in church or in public.
      And of course Ron believes that God so loved the world he sent his only begotten son to be tortured for many days and to die the most horrible, excruciating death that one can possibly imagine…only because God so loved the world.
      If Ron should deny that he believes any of this wholeheartedly & with zest, then he is not the Christian he claims to be but a counterfeit, and an imposter.

    • Hello Ron, c.c. Throgmorton,

      Ron claims he believes in the teaching of Christ but he doesnot tell the truth. Ron Believes he will go to heaven. he can’t. He’s married: “They that marry & take wives shall not be counted worthy of Heaven & of the resurrection from the dead.” Luke 20:34,35

      I believe in my heart that Ron is not telling all that he really believes & is an imposter & a counterfeit.

  86. Pog,

    You are right in that we could “argue” all day long and neither of us would budge an inch and you are also correct that this blog was intended to dispute the email that has been making the rounds. To address that issue, I will not answer for what God has or has not done. Did I/Will I forward the email – no – I delete it because it is pure speculation as to whether or not God did in fact cause these deaths or if they were indeed accidents of pure coincidence.

    Scorpioa,

    You have gone beyond the realm of argument to the realm of ridiculous, once again presuming to speak for me. The one, and final, remark I will make to your remarks: The new covenant that Jesus implemented with his death, burial, and resurrection did away with the old covenant of which you seem to have either knowledge of or did research on for your post as you pull scripture out of context and apply to someone you don’t even know. As for your ridiculous claim that married people cannot enter heaven, the passage you so conveniently take out of context is Jesus responding to an equally ridiculous challenge by some Sadducees (who should have known better as they were scholars of the Law) as to whose wife would a woman be if she had been married to 7 different brothers, one at a time as one died and then the other. What Jesus is saying is that there is no “marriage” after your physical body dies and there is no “marriage” in heaven. If you try to apply marriage in heaven, then you are not worthy of heaven because you don’t understand it – which you obviously don’t. I can prove and disprove many things by taking scripture – as well as scientific studies and reports – out of context and quoting them. It’s done all the time by reporters that are trying to make someone look a certain way or say something controversial. Read and study scripture in context with an open mind & heart. There are 2 ways to study: 1) to prove your point, in which case you will do what you did – search out single verses (or maybe a couple together) to prove your point, or 2) to study with an open mind & heart to learn what God is saying through His message that’s been delivered by men through their letters.

    For all of you that are non-believers – actually you are believers in the sense that you “believe” there’s no God – so I’ll rephrase that – for the all of you that don’t believe in God, I feel very sad for you. You have nothing to live for. You believe that once your physical body is dead, it’s all over. On the other hand, I believe – with conviction – that all of our physical bodies will indeed pass away, but our real person – our souls will bow before God and be separated to the right and to the left. Lenny – I’m sure you will get your desire and spend eternity in hell. As for me, here’s something that I thought about this past Friday after my grandbabies went home after a 2 week visit. My wife and I kept the grandbabies for 2 weeks without their parents. Our grand-daughter is 5 and our grandson is 4, so they are old enough to think and pretty much do most things for themselves. We had a lot of fun going to the zoo, drawing, painting, feeding the ducks at a pond, swimming, and just playing (yep, Christians can indeed have fun). We live a very nice and full life, no I’m not rich with money, although I’m comfortable for now (about to lose my job due to the company I worked for being bought out). The grandkids had a great time with us, but almost every night, they asked when daddy & mommy were coming to get them. Although this made me a little sad, it also made me happy that they were looking for, missing, and anticipating their parents coming to get them. They decided to have an art show (our walls, cabinets, everything that a piece of paper could be taped to had a picture) and put up a “welcome” sign and balloons the day daddy & mommy were to arrive. The point – which I’m sure all of you will scoff at – is: grandma & grandpa’s house is like this earth, we are here for a short period of time and then we are gone. While at our house (earth), they had a great time (yep, I’ve had some wonderful times in my life), but they longed for their daddy & mommy (just as Christians long for the return of Jesus) and they were so very excited when they heard the car drive up (just as Christians are going to be when Jesus does return). What do you have to look forward to? Dirt in the face and then terrible, terrible agony for all of eternity.

    A preacher I know sent the following in an email, so I will close with this bit of thought from him (and yes, this will actually be my final post on this site as I don’t see any sense in continuing with what’s alread been said and seeing it degenerate even further as Scorpioa has taken it).

    From my friend, a preacher of the Gospel:
    Does God Exist?

    Do you know anyone who died? Do you know any who came back from the dead? I don’t. I know many who are now in the grave, but I know of none who returned. Think about it. Why do we fear death? Because it’s irreversible. It’s final. It’s a great mystery. Not many go that way in peace. Why would anyone believe that someone actually did beat death and return to life if we’ve never seen it happen?

    Do you REALLY believe in a resurrected man? You’re either off your rocker, or you have found the most powerful truth this world has ever known.

    Paul put it well in 1 Corinthians 15:12-14:

    12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
    13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
    14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.

    It works both ways: If there IS a God, it’s easy to believe in a resurrection. If there is no resurrection, there is no God and we are wasting our time…and our lives…and all this living is really pointless, empty, and all we are is dust in the wind.

    You must answer both of these questions YES or both NO. Do you believe in God? Do you believe in the resurrection of the dead?

    My answer to both of these is a resounding YES. I know yours is a resounding NO. Since we all know where the other stands in our beliefs, we can just leave it there and go about our business and our lives.

    Farewell – and like it or not, I do pray that something will happen in your lives to change your minds before it’s too late. Meanwhile, I will continue to live a very pleasant, fun, happy life – not missing out on anything of importance – and look forward to meeting my God and living with Him for eternity.

    Ron

    • To Ron, etc
      I was all ready to accept any response to this latest post as an exercise in futilty. One who chooses to defy & deny God’s gift of reason is beyond any possibility of accepting reason. However Ron’s presumption that the “non-believer’s” are going to hell reveals the real problem with those individuals of his sort. I knew that if I prodded him long enough (despite several outside protests) the real truth about this fellow would come out.
      “Jesus did away with the old covenant” (God’s covenant) Seems like a defiance of God’s will to me. Seem’s like Jesus disagreed with God’s scriptures & covenants. Because Ron at the outset seemed like a fairly reasonable person, until he exposed himself, I hesitated to ask him to visit a Catholic priest for an exorcism, but now because of his “HELL” comment I feel obliged to do so.
      I also have to suspect that Ron teaches his grandchildren that non believers are going to hell, so he should be formally charged with CHILD ABUSE!

    • Hi Ron,

      What a strange bunch you believers are. Forever, consigning non-believers to eternal damnation in one breath [Lenny – I’m sure you will get your desire and spend eternity in hell], and trying to be god’s gift to mankind in the next […I do pray that something will happen in your lives to change your minds before it’s too late.]. You have missed the whole point of my post about the hoax emails, altogether; indulging in the very behaviour I have spoken out against. Never mind…

      Once again, while the proselytzing has been rampant, no shred of evidence has been provided for any of the fantastical claims being made; other than quotes from a disputed source [context being used with impunity].

      Like you I live my life quite happily – at times, in ecstacy even – knowing quite well that it has no purpose other than that which I create myself. I have no fears about any imagined afterlife, and indeed no unrealistic expectations of becoming a superior beings eternal venerator. That sounds like such a miserable eternity to me.

      If there is indeed a god or higher power, and if there is any justice, or sense or purpose in the world, I suspect that there will be quite a large number of so-called believers who will be joining me in the famed HELL.

      Until then, I prefer to live life, rather than imagine absurd outcomes…

      • 2 good samaritans went to heaven by drowning.in Florida this week while trying to save a child and a couple from drowning (2 seoarate incidents) .

        They leave their famlies sans husband or daddy.

      • Lenny,

        Bobby Fischer, the chess player MOCKED GOD in 1972, when he said he was so good that if he played with God it would be a draw. Guess what? He died 18 months ago in 2008.

        So, there goes your theory! Ha!

        Just thought some of your posters would be interested.

        • Hi Scorpioa

          I have no idea what theory you’re talking about, but I reckon that Fischer would beat that loser. Hell, maybe Fischer’s creaming him/it/her in heaven right now.

  87. Only a fool says in his own heart there is no GOD, and the Bible says don’t answer a fool according to his folly

    • Hello, Jerry,

      If you really believe in God then you must dispute the Bible, as God has exposed it as a fraud, fake & forgery. Otherwise even God can see thru your hypocracy. That has to be your confession if you seek salvation. Otherwise you’re all talk & no action. Does not fare well with the creator. Have you considered visiting a Catholic Priest?

      • I would love to hear how you think how God has disproven the Bible, which is His own divine word? And while you’re at it tell me how a mortal MAN, a Priest is going to help Lenny? A priest does not have the power to absolve sin, only Jesus does. Then again, don’t bother as I am about to block this site because it does nothing to help anyone, in fact I am sure it is a major stumbling block for many. Shame on you and Lenny.

        • Hi Michelle,

          Scorpioa is a commentator just like you who is entitled to his opinions. For the record, I do not endorse his arguments, nor do I agree with them. However, as an advocate of free speech, I allow him to express himself freely. I am the sole author of this site, and the blogs are my work alone. However, I am not responsible for the comments made here. You can refer to my About Me page for more information in this regard.

          If you engage in conversation with one of the commenters on this blog, don’t blame me for it not being “civilized.” I only engage in civilized conversation, which I agree may be sarcastic at times, but sarcasm does not equate to uncivilized convsersation.

          I still await your response to my reply about your James Emery White challenge. Instead you have chosen to focus on Scorpioa’s comments. I wonder why?

          Your opinion that this site is a major stumblig block to “many” is just that, your opinion. And finally, yes, it’s indeed a great “shame” that logical and rational thinking is at such a premium in the world.

    • Hi Jerry

      Fortunately I don’t use my heart to do my thinking. Perhaps you too should try using the correct organ for thinking; it’s amazing what you’ll discover.

      BTW, the bible says a lot of other sick things too; I’m sure you’re familiar with them. But, if you’re using your heart for cognition, I’ll excuse you if you aren’t.

    • Hello, Jerry
      If you think God approves of your devious, intentional ,Biblical OUT OF TEXT “misquotes”. Think again. Pick up a Bible & read it. Despite your vitriolic proclamation, God knows that YOU are truly the FOOL! I’m sure that God will turn you away on the day of judgement for your fool-born folly & hypocrisy. Find the first Catholic priest you can before it’s too late.

  88. I am a Christian believer and I also happen to disagree with everything you write. However, I am not going to tell you that I am right and you are wrong, nor am I going to offer to pray for you. I am however, going to offer you a challenge. Your writing seems to imply that you fancy yourself an intellect and a believer in science over faith. So, if you can keep an open mind and read a very short book titled “A Search for the Spiritual” by James Emery White you will find it offers scientific, mathmatical and spiritual PROOF of the existance of a Creator (God). It’s an easy read and I hope you pick it up, for if your quest is truly for fact based proof this will provide it. Before you close your mind to the idea try to remember that an true Christian relationship with God has very little to do with organized religion, rituals or propoganda, these things are man-made and man is arrogant and faliable, God, however is not. And FYI, anyone who tells you that lying for Jesus is ok is more interested in appearing “right” than appearing Christian.

    • OK Michelle…God exists. It’s just that he’s pissed off at all the fairy tales in the Bible. There exists mathematical, scientific, astrological evidence that he frowns on the stories of which he is accused. He laughs at the Biblical concoctions about Adam & Eve, the serpent, Cain having sex with his mother…or was it his sister, Noah…the guy who caused the great flood, Jonah (you know him) the guy who ate the whale…oh sorry it wasn’t a whale he ate…it was a big gigantic fish….see what I mean?
      He chuckles at the Jesus ‘miracles’ …..like the resurrection stuff, or even where Jesus gets involved with Jack & the Beanstalk or Cinderella who ate the apple…oh no it was the witch…right. And he also gets a big charge from the the Hansel & Gretal story that’s in the Bible too. I don’t think Jesus was in that one….they left him out. But, he was a good guy, if he existed. No doubt. May you be blessed.

      • Yep, I thought so. Well, Blog on brother but you may just want to ask yourself why you hold so much malice toward something that you are so convinced doesn’t exist.

        • Michelle, Perhaps you should attend evening classes on reading comprehension training. I wrote :”God exists”…though I don’t know for sure, my sense of logic suggests that. It’s just that I don’t believe he is the psychopatic monster that you make him out to be. My sense of logic also reveals that you have no understanding of the Bible….that it’s all fictional stories based on some element of fact that may or may not have taken place. You’re a robotic puppet who quotes poetic verses…I have no problem with that …it’s just that you who purportedly believes in a creator has no reverence for the gift with which he endowed you. As a matter of fact you show complete contempt for it. You can lie, twist, wriggle, juggle all you want . Like I wrote, go thee & attend evening classes in improving your ability to comprehend. This will also assist when you pick up a Bible to read it,

  89. Lenny,

    I read my Bible every day and I know it well enough to know that part is parable and part literal. The stories that you call fairy tales can be proven through-out history, in fact the Bible can be proven on it’s Phophesy alone so if you disbelieve the Bible then you don’t believe in history either. I don’t believe that you chose to be an “atheist” out of logic, I believe you had a very bad RELIGIOUS experience somewhere along the line and that’s a shame because no, God is not a monster, He is a God of Love and Grace but the dark side of the spiritual realm exists as well and that should put fear into us all but unfortunately our modern society has twisted and perverted God’s word to the point that it is very unappealing to those who do not understand it. I am not worried about what you think of my beliefs, I have experienced my own, very intense revelations from God but they were mine, not yours so I won’t bear them out to you here as their impact would not mean much to you and you would dismiss the reality of it as my overworked sense of fantasy I suppose. But I do wish you luck and peace and really, pick up the book, what can it hurt?

    • Hi Michelle

      I’d be really interested to know how you determine which part of the bible is literal and which part is parable. Certain parts of the bible is based loosely on history – that does not mean that the bible is historically true. In fact biblical scholars have proved that it is largely hostorically inaccurate.

      Prophesy? Authors of the new testament who “created” stories that make “predictions” in the old testament “come” true, is not prophesy.

      Once more, I did not have a “bad religious experience.” In fact, while I was a believer, I had all good religious experiences. However, that was not enough to keep me chained to false beliefs and superstition. I learnt the truth about religion, and am now truly free. I would rather have bad experiences, than be illogical and superstitious.

  90. Michelle, It’s obvious that you have no understanding of the Bible. This is why you twist & turn, despite your proclamation to the opposite. There are those who believe that every single word in the Bible is true. I want you to admit that you believe that the Adam & Eve story & serpent story is a fairy tale, the story of Noah’s ark with his collection of every species on earth to take on his ark is only a parable. I want you to tell me that you do not believe Joshua stopped the sun, & that Jonah ate 5 whales or was it five big fish or did they eat him? If you claim not to believe those stories, then you are a fraud. Others believe those stories to be true. How vulgar of you to dispute what they believe! If you deny those stories as being fact, then you are still a bigger fraud & fake…you choose to believe or not to believe like someone in a cafeteria who chooses what to put on his plate. .

  91. You make absolutely no sense. Tell me where I said I didn’t believe the Bible or where I am twisting or turning anything? Did you even read my post or are you as well only here to drip scarasm and say any believer must be mad? Where did I dispute anyone who believes? I too believe so I have no idea what you are talking about. All I said was some things in the Bible are parables, yes, Jesus spoke in Parables, how is that being vulguar or how does it dispute the beliefs of others? This site is nonsense and I was foolish to think I could carry on a civilized or intelligent conversation here. Obviously the only purpose for this site is to hurt Christians. Done and Done.

    • I find it interesting that I question you about Genesis and you twist & turn & ramble about Jesus. There’s got to be a reason you do this. This makes me suspect much about you. What is your purpose for avoiding the questions? Did not Jesus say you shall know the truth & it shall make you free? Have you conveniently forgotten that? You mention about a “civilized discussion”. One cannot have that with a person like you that has something to hide or is deceitful. See what I mean? You ramble & rant, yet you are unable to express yourself coherently. This a typical problem with people who are crafty & wily & have been caught or exposed.
      First be true to yourself, then you can be true to others.

    • Michelle, What is further revealing about you is that you responded to Lenny finding fault with him for exposing those who send & spread hoax e-mails. If that is the case & it is, you obviously sympathize with those purveyors of religious hoaxes. Quite telling abut you. An emergency self examination is in order for you.

  92. 1915: 1.8 Billion people,
    2010: 6.8 Billion people,
    95 years: 5 Billion people,
    2310: 22 Billion people,
    Solution to problem: Stop Creating Babies,
    I am 100% sure your generations will appreciate not being created and left behind to suffer in that mess of insanity. And it will be one hell of a mess.

    • Hey Jesus,

      Are you still hanging out on cloud nine? How’s your father, Zeus or Thor or Jehovah or Allah, or whatever it is you guys call the cosmic dodo these days?

      Solution to problem is education and critical thinking.

  93. I see fear in the tone of voice of the writer. Fear of his life. Nobody says God kills anybody. All we are saying is God allows and disallows things from happening to people, so that his name will be glorified. Whether you accept it or not, you are not a product of spontaneity or evolution. You were made by him. You have to acknowledge it and ask for his forgiveness. Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. All I will say is, whether you or whoever believes it or not, GOD IS REAL !!!

    • Hi Jackson,

      Yeah, I’m positively terrified; just quaking in my boots.

      “…God allows and disallows things from happening to people, so that his name will be glorified.” Do you consider this to be an appealing and acceptable trait, worthy of praise and worship? Suppose a gang leader demands that you give him respect, praise and off course money, for not attacking and killing your family members. I suppose you would respect his demand – he’s simply allowing or dis-allowing your family members from being killed. If he decides not to kill your family, because you accede to his demand, he must be right and deserving of praise and respect, right?

      Have you not considered that such a demand is vain, pompous, tyrannical and inglorious? Certainly not worthy of praise. Do you believe that a percieved god (one you can’t know for certain exists) should be held to different standards to man?

      “GOD IS REAL !!!” I suppose that your stating it in bold makes it true? Yeah, Jackson said it, so it must be true!!!

    • Hello Jackson,
      It is sad that you are DOOMED to HELL
      Do you really believe that God approves of your demonizing him as you do? You have condemend GOD. Remember,God does not believe that a serpent stood upright & spoke as you believe. God does not believe in the fictitious tales of Adam & Eve in the Garden, or Noah & Jonah eating a gigantic fish together on passover as you believe .. God does not believe that Cain & his mother Eve had sex in the garden as you believe. You believe this because you are a degenerate spawned by incest. . God does not believe that Jesus killed the serpent & the whale in the Garden of Eden as you believe. You believe these things because your mind has been degenerated & perverted by Satan. Your sickness & degeneracy can be cured with a visitation to a Catholic Priest. You have created a psychotic, crazed demon that you call your “God”. That is not the real God. A Catholic priest will save you. Otherwise you are DOOMED! But be assured, I am praying for you because I love you!

    • Jackson, you lil’ devil worshipper! Come out! Come out! , wherever you are! This only proves you don’t even believe what you wrote. You’re even trying to sneak one over on God. You can’t pull the wool over his eyes you know. You made a comment. Received 2 replies refuting your cowardly comments & won’t even back up what you write. All I can say is Jackson, you ain’t gonna like it in HELL you know. Fess up. Beg God to forgive you now. Otherwise the next few days are going to result in turmoil, If you get my drift. You have been commanded to respond. Do it now!

  94. I don’t know how someone can be so convinced that all there is to life is what is visible to their eyes only. I mean I’m not even religious but I know there has to be more to life than what the media churns out to us in numerous forms.

    There are scores of questions that science cannot and will never be able to give answers to, because science is limited. Humans are limited, for example, we can’t live forever so how do humans expect to hold all the answers to big questions?

    Life has to be more than the mundane, working>family>dying cycle.

    It seems that you have some serious dislike for Christians in all your threads. I don’t really see you picking apart Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc etc. Those religions are mostly religions based on beliefs in deities unseen to the physical senses and all presumably contradict your beloved science. It really seems that you really hate Jesus freaks. Hmm just a thought.

    • Jesus freaks can be as dangerous to themselves & others as the 19 Islamic terrorists on 9-11. One need not hate them. God hates them. If God hates them that should be sufficient.

    • Hi Contracts

      Off course there is more to life than what the media churns out. Why do you assume that I live my life according to what I read/see on TV etc?

      Off course there are many questions that science cannot answer…for now, and perphaps never will. But does that mean I need to accord these questions supernatural answers, just because it would make me more comfortable? I’m quite happy to not know and even doubt.

      Off course life is more than the mundane? Why do you presume I live a mundane life? You have no idea how busy I am with experiencing and living in the NATURAL world.

      I don’t dislike Christians; it’s just that they tend to be respond more than other religious denominations, and they tend to ignore my disclaimer about being rational and logical. If you read my other posts, you will see that Islam and Hinduism and whatever, cops just as much flack as Christianity.

      And what do you mean by “Those religions are mostly religions based on beliefs in deities unseen to the physical senses…?” Are you suggesting that Christianity is based on deities “seen” by the “physical senses”?

      It’s not “my beloved science.” It’s just science. Too bad it’s not “beloved” by you; it makes our discussion possible, not to mention just about everything else in the world…

      “It really seems that you really hate Jesus freaks. Hmm just a thought.”
      HATE? It really seems that you really assume too much…

  95. Hello Contracts,
    As to be expected you ignore all that is rational to support irrational behavior. Again I suggest that Jesus freaks are just as dangerous to themselves as they are to others….no different (well maybe just a little) than the 19 911 attackers. Prove to me otherwise. There are countless incidents of “Jesus Freaks” hearing voices commanding them to kill. (their children, spouses, etc). .
    And then your comment; “Those religions are mostly religions based on beliefs in deities unseen to the physical senses”. Hah! Unseen? See what I mean?
    You have nothing to say about my comment that God hates Jesus freaks? Think about it. They believe that God (a loving God) drowns innocent babies on a whim. They believe that God is so mentallly psychotic that to show the world ” he loves them” he takes his only son & has him tortured in the most horrible manner imaginable to mankind. Jesus freaks love that “spikes in the wrists & ankles stuff” & all that blood & guts stuff that “God caused” upon his “only beloved son because he loved the world” Isn’t that a sickness? You’re probably a nice guy, but you just haven’t given these things any thought. God has no problem with people who question his existence. But he does have a problem with those dangerous Jesus freaks.
    May I have the courtesy of a response?……..

  96. Lenny is Liar! Lenny is a Liar!
    He pretends to not believe in the supernatural!
    When he really does, when he really does
    When-he-really-dooooeeeessss!

    He doesn’t like the idea of accountability
    So he vigorously attempts to refute everybody
    What makes no sense, up against science
    Is what Lenny leans oooooonnnn!

    Lenny is Liar! Lenny is a Liar!
    He pretends to not believe in the supernatural!
    When he really does, when he really does
    When-he-really-dooooeeeessss!

    The idea of quitting certain things, to Lenny really stinks
    So he so sarcastically pans and slates in the cutest, dressed-up ways
    What makes no sense, up against science
    Is what Lenny leans oooooonnnn!

    Lenny is Liar! Lenny is a Liar!
    He pretends to not believe in the supernatural!
    When he really does, when he really does
    When-he-really-dooooeeeessss!

    Lenny is Liar! Lenny is a Liar!
    He pretends to not believe in the supernatural!
    When he really does, when he really does
    When-he-really-dooooeeeessss!

    (Repeat until fade)

    • Hi Lalala,

      You can sing until you’re blue in the face; it won’t make your childish allegations true.

      Now stop being an ass and actually show where I lied and prove it.

      • Lenny is a Liar! Lenny is a Liar!
        He pretends to not believe in the supernatural!
        When he really does, when he really does
        When-he-really-dooooeeeessss!

        He doesn’t like the idea of accountability
        So he vigorously attempts to refute everybody
        What makes no sense, up against science
        Is what Lenny leans oooooonnnn!

        Lenny is Liar! Lenny is a Liar!
        He pretends to not believe in the supernatural!
        When he really does, when he really does
        When-he-really-dooooeeeessss!

        The idea of quitting certain things, to Lenny really stinks
        So he sarcastically pans and slates in the cutest, dressed-up ways
        What makes no sense, up against science
        Is what Lenny leans oooooonnnn!

        Lenny is a Liar! Lenny is a Liar!
        He pretends to not believe in the supernatural!
        When he really does, when he really does
        When-he-really-dooooeeeessss!

        Lenny is a Liar! Lenny is a Liar!
        He pretends to not believe in the supernatural!
        When he really does, when he really does
        When-he-really-dooooeeeessss!

        (Repeat until fade)

  97. This is such a crazy page, I’m not going to try to convert you.
    From your article you repeatedly assert that there legacy following after there death is some kind of justication for their words.
    Using this method of assertion you could say that Hitler may have died an early death yet he has thousands if not millions of admirers(arian parties and white supremisists).
    Frankly your method of assertion is ridiculous

    • John,

      Nowhere do I assert that their legacy is justification for saying what they did. I assert that their legacy is inviolate nothwithstanding the hateful nonsense that the author of the e-mail has tried to smear their good names with. There is a big difference, which has obviously escaped your reasoning abilities.

      SinceI did not use the method of assertion which you alleged, it does not extrapolate my opinion of Hitler. You use a common fallacy which is popular with religious apologists to cast aspersions on my reasoning by your own faulty reasoning.

      Incidently, the author did not mention Hitler, who was a well documented Catholic. The author only picked on non-theistic persons who he/she thought would convince ignorant people of her [faulty] logic, but failed miserably…as did you.

  98. Hey John, What Cuckoo Cage did you escape from? I betcha there is not one human being, cuckoo or otherwise that has read anything more illiterate, confused, incoherent & jumbled than the nonsensical jibber jabber that you have unashamedly presented on this page. I have assigned the man in the white coat with the big net to find you & catch YOU! Watch out!

  99. Your assertion is not explicit, it is implicit. Even the updated assertion that the “hoax email” does not violate their legacy, is an assertion that no one could comprehensively evaluate. The effect of such an email is in the individual lives of the people who read it.

    Let me draw out my original point more for you so that it is more obvious. At the end of each case you write “The truth is, achieved greatness before he died and his memory lives on – what more can you ask from life?”. Using this same line that you repeatedly cycle one could write.. The truth is, Hitler achieved greatness before he died and his memory lives on – what more can you ask from life?

    Hitler killed priests during his reign. So your suggestion that he was Catholic is just silly. Review the sources of your documentation which suggested he was Catholic(while in power).

    FYI Logic defination: The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning.

    Scorpioa, “I betcha there is not one human being, cuckoo or otherwise that has read anything more illiterate, confused, incoherent & jumbled than the nonsensical jibber jabber that you have unashamedly presented on this page.” Please learn how to write sentances before calling others ‘illiterate’. I would be very concerned if you had control over the “man in the white coat”

    • Hey Johnnie,
      Betcha I kept you up all night pouting & squirming & raising your blood pressure while you were trying to figure out an “intelijent” “reesponse” to my post. Next time don’t be so hasty in trying to come back with a ‘lojical” riposte, attempting to present yourself as an “inellekshual” because you simply continue to prove yourself as an illiterate jackass who is in urgnt need of remedial “edjukashion”. My assignment today to you is for you to reread every post you write before you present it & you will save yourself the embarrasment of showing yourself as a complete idiot. Check your “defination” & “sentance”. Also that you are not aware of the historical fact that Hitler was a Catholic (and this is certainly not to berate other Catholics) confirms that you an ignorant tickle-brained varlot who probably is as smart as a malt-worm and actually believes those ridiculous Biblical stories in Genesis (notwithstanding the rest). Tell me you believe the 1st 2 pages of Genesis & show the rest of the world the extent of gullibility of those who lack reasoning brain power.

    • Hi John,

      My assertion is implicit in your mind only; and probably in the minds of all religious apologists.

      Your argument about Hitler is fatally flawed. It’s a common “substitution” flaw/fallacy. Perhaps you should look it up…

      The church persecuted many Christians during the dark ages [and throughout its long ugly history]. So by your reasoning, the Church was not Christian.

      Hitler’s religious affiliation is well documented [in power or not]. Perhaps you prefer referencing only the lies spread by religious apologists? Holocaust denial sound familiar?

      Definition of logic: Logic (from ancient Greek λόγος (logos), meaning reason) is the study of arguments. Its primary task is to set up criteria for distinguishing good from bad arguments. Arguments express inferences—the processes whereby new assertions are produced from already established ones. As such, of particular concern in logic is the structure of arguments—the formal relations between the newly produced assertions and the previously established ones, where “formal” means that the relations are independent of the assertions themselves. Just as important is the investigation of validity of inference, including various possible definitions of validity and practical conditions for its determination.

      Take some time to understand it. Quoting it means nothing…

      • Scorpioa, I’m quite concerned for you now. For your own sake I’m not going to reply to your comments anymore.

        Hi Lenny, please give a reference to your claim that Hitler was a practising Catholic while in power. Lets just stick to facts(based on well sourced reference).
        While on the subject I deplore the idea of denying the Holocaust.

        There have been many schisms in the Church. To go into the history of the Church would require volumes of books.

        Honestly I’m quite surprised that you posted that excerpt. If anything this reinforces my argument. Clearly your article contains assertion.. “Anyway by this time, Monroe,Lennon etc had already achieved greatness and will forever be remembered – what more can you ask from life?”
        The structure of your argument is going through each example in the email and repeating this line at the end of each example. Your inference that their legacy has not been violated is ridiculous by stating this line at the end of each case.

        At this point I feel like I’m explaining a very simple and obvious point to a six year old. If you are not able to draw out the reasoning of your article and mount a rebuttal then there is not much point to this discussion.

        • Hi John,

          There are tons of misleading information available on the net, which seem to indicate that even though Hitler specifically confirms his religious convictions in Mein Kampf, it is believed that he forsook that conviction while in power. If you really insist on a reference, here’s one online discussion about the the matter from goanet, where the writer Cornel provides proof which he didn’t poach from an atheist source. Another discussion you can read here at The Education Forum. Why not be less dogmatic and broaden your knowledge by doing your own research. Live dangerously for once. Information is available, if you’re really interested.

          You can also reference the Catholic Church’s association with Hitler and Nazi Germany and their involvement with the escape of top ranking Nazi’s to South America, at your own leisure.

          But all of this is of no relevence to my post about the disgusting efforts of the author of the e-mail above to disparage certain famous people. The only assertion I made was that in spite of these attempts the honour and good name of the maligned individuals still stands.

          Hence my statement “Anyway by this time, Monroe,Lennon etc had already achieved greatness and will forever be remembered – what more can you ask from life?”

          But you saw fit to try to twist the meaning of my statement, just like the disgusting author of that hate-filled e-mail, who tried in vain to twist the words of certain famous people, and disingenuously link their deaths with an imagined revolt against a supernatural being, for which there is absolutely no evidence.

          Yes John, you may feel like you’re speaking to a six-year old, but that’s because you invented an argument where there is none. And yes, it’s also convenient that you do not want to discuss “the many schisms in the Church” because it does not help your argument.

          Ridiculous? I can think of many things more ridiculous, especially with the whole concept of faith and religion, but you know that already, don’t you?

  100. Hey John,

    In that you would take issue with someone who exposes all the devious Jesus freak lies & hoaxes,…….doesn’t that make you a Jesus freak liar & hoaxer? You ain’t going to heaven. I’ll tell you that now.

  101. Hi Lenny,
    Thank you for expanding on your point.

    Hitler stated that Christianity and Catholisism were enemies of the state. He also said that he was the protector of Christianity. The fact is that Hitlers comments on this subject are contradictory. The real truth is arguments can be made on both sides cause Hitler was playing both sides to his advantage.

    I didn’t twist the meaning of the statement. I’m just exposing how ridiculous the statement is.

    The email attempts to instill the fear of God in people. I can’t say that the people in the email died due to their words against God cause people like Jesus, Martin Luther King and many other good people have been killed prematurely. For someone who is so firmly against this email I’m surprised at the amount of time you have devoted to it.

    • Hi John,

      True, that’s what many historians would have you believe about Hitler. I’m convinced however that it would take something like religious conviction to make someone that crazy. History will bear me out. Anyway, this post is not about Hitler. Nice try though, trying to sideline the discussion; a red herring reasoning error, I believe.

      My meaning is simple; your attempts to cloud the meaning are commendable, but ultimately quite useless. I will make it simple for you:

      People like John Lennon are revered by hundreds of millions of people around the world, many years after his death. These millions are not talking about that statement about god he made; they’re talking about the greatness of the man. So my statement about him achieving greatness is valid. The same reasoning applies to Marilyn Monroe. The other people mentioned in the hate-mail are a bit more obscure, but the logic still applies. Your attempt to associate his greatness with the statement he made is perverse and disingenuous. I did not make any such connection; that is entirely of your own manufacture.

      How many people hold the builder of the Titanic responsible for the terrible tragedy that occurred? It was a navigation error. Had the ship not struck an iceburg, it may well have still been around today. The truth is the guy who built it, achieved greatness, because nothing had been achieved on that scale, at the time. He will always be revered for his accomplishment.

      Obviously you condone the author’s attempts to “instill fear” in people through lies and deceit. Anything to please poor old god; that’s been the success of religion all these years, hasn’t it? And you call my reasoning ridiculous.

      • Your statement is valid for all these people, I’m not saying it’s not. What I AM saying is that it is also valid for Hitler. Therefore it’s not much of a statement.

        For those who truely believe in God, the Fear of God is very important. People who don’t believe would not understand it obviously.

        • Hey John
          It’s obvious that Lenny is on to you & your evasive deceitfulness. Why is it that all you “God” fearing Bible Thumpers thrive on deception, lies, prevarications, schemes, evasion, crookedness, deviations, dishonesty, (do you have an honest bone in your body?) falsehoods, trickery, untruthfulness, duplicity. It is creeps like you who are one of the reasons that atheism exists. This is your shame. Your ignominy. You must live with it, unfortunately for you. Poor hellbound soul that you are.

        • Hi John,

          There you go making fallacious associations again. The statement can never be true for Hitler for the following reasons:
          1.) Hitler most certainly is not in the same category of the people mentioned. He was morally bankrupt. Only the misguided author of this hate-mail considers the people he chose to mention, as morally bankrupt.
          2.) Hitler is not remembered with fondness or revered as the others mentioned; except by the hate-filled minority who support Nazism…or even you and the author of the email perhaps?

          An error of comparison, yes? But we’re making progress…from “ridiculous” to “valid for all these people.”

          “For those who truely believe in God, the Fear of God is very important.” –
          How do you not see this statement as a betrayal of everything mankind has learned, discovered and achieved on this earth? The willingness to subjugate yourself to a fear of that which is unknowable. Assuming there was indeed a god creature, I’d be flabbergasted if he/she/it valued such a disgusting, spineless trait in a person.

  102. John,
    Would not Jesus express condemnation for the Devil when he makes his appearance? Why should it bother you that Lenny spends so much time in doing so? What is it you’re trying (unsuccessfully) to hide? May we expect you to fess up?

    • Oh look who’s back!!!

      The composer of crude songs that casts aspersions, not rational arguments.

      And now he expects me to believe the outrageous fantasies being depicted on these religious propaganda videos.

      But wait, that’s not all…He wants me to learn about REAL men, supposedly the kind portrayed in these videos, the kind that have…..wait for it…BEEN TO HELL AND BACK. Yeah, if REAL MEN are delusional then I’m happy to be an UNREAL man.

      Wait, wait, I feel a song coming on…

      Lenny is UNREAL, Lenny is UNREAL..
      LALA LALA LALA LALA…
      etc. etc

      BTW, pray tell me why REAL MEN fear an invisible sky fairy?

    • Hey Lalala,
      You can’t be faulted for being a simple minded moron, but you & John can be faulted for being degenerate, depraved perverts. Jesus is going to kick your asses real soon.

  103. Hi Lenny,
    Reason 1. Many would say that these people in the email are also morally corrupt, obviously not to the same extent as Hitler.
    Reason 2. Hitler is remembered with fondness by millions. Anyway your original article does not mention anything about being remembered in fondness, it mentions greatness. Your two reasons do not stand.

    Therefore the statement does translate also for Hitler.
    Fear of God is common sense if you believe in God. We have been placed in this journey and how we live it counts to us.

    • Hey Lalala,
      You can’t be faulted for being a simple minded moron, but you & John can be faulted for being degenerate, depraved perverts. Jesus is going to kick your asses real soon.

    • Hi John,

      Yes, many would, and they’d all be religious, fundamentalist or ignorant. However, the indications are that many more don’t think they’re morally bankrupt; ergo the adulation.

      What does it matter that my original article does not mention fondness. My original article does not mention Hitler, nor does the sick author of this e-mail. Fondness is associated with greatness. There are certainly millions who remember Hitler with fondness, but there’s most certainly many many more who don’t.

      Come now John, you’re not even trying anymore.

      “Fear of God is common sense if you believe in God.”

      Really, why would that be? It does not correlate that a pure, benevolent, loving being should be feared. Unless of course he’s in fact the god of the Old Testament as described by Richard Dawkins, “jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

  104. Sicko John fears “his fabricated God” for good reason. Just as the Devil fears “his God” & all the other little demons fear “their God”. If Sicko John were a righteous person, he would not fear “his God”. Sicko John fears “his God” because of Sicko John’s deceitfulness & crookedness, & vile devious trickery. But then again this might indicate that Sicko John created “his God” to be the image of him in more than one way. If Sicko John’s “made up God” is all that he claims him to be, then surely Sicko John is destined to burn in Hell for an eternity. Cheez…I’d sure hate to be in his shoes.

    • Hi John,

      It’s really very simple. People are generally fond of greatness. People are remembered fondly for their greatness. What’s so difficult to understand about that. Derision is associated with wickedness or immorality. Can you say that Hitler was generally remembered with fondness or derision? Your entire argument is baseless. You are really grasping at straws here.

      I don’t recall introducing the notion of fear into the argument; that was you. Maybe I’m making that up too. Uh, John?

    • Hi Aldo,

      The short version: When I started to examine religion un-emotionally and critically, I started realising what a humongous fraud scheme it all was. It did not take me long to get confirmation of my doubts from the many atheist resources that are available.

      You can get the longer version on my About Page.

    • Hello, Aldo,
      I know of many people people who became atheists simply by picking up & READING the Bible. If you’re not an atheist, it means you’ve never read the Bible…and I mean the Bible, starting with Genesis. Get past Genesis & you’re still a Biblical believer & it means you’ve been hooked by demons who have taken possession of you.

  105. Latest News! Jesus kills, drowns & bury’s hundreds of innocent men women & children causing massive earthquake in Japan in one felt swoop!. He also threatens to kill & destroy some in California with 7 foot tall Tsunamis! Now, that’s what I call immense POWER! WHEE!

  106. Well although the e-mail may not all be true, its some truth to it. God may not have had anything to do with it. It could’ve been the devil. Seems as if they may have been possessed. Doesn’t matter if they were sucessful or not. This type of behavior is still happening today. Doesn’t AC/DC actually means after Christ, devil comes? And was not most of these people part of the entertainment industry? Did God not make Adam & Eve? Is not homosexuality an abomination? Are not the chances of a rich man going to heaven is slim to none? Is not satan working his way in politically also? Has been for years and years to be accurate. I guess my point is seems like these FAMOUS people sold their souls to the devil and got death in return, God may have shortened their lives or not, but it clear he didn’t keep them from death. It doesn’t matter if there name still lives on. We all know satan plays a major role in the entertainment industry and in politics, news, white house, government, etc… and its still that way til this very day. There is such thing as MK Ultra, mind control, doing something against your morals just to be famous or make money. You know where I’m getting at. Did not satan try to tempt Jesus to try God? Did satan not try to get Job to curse God? Could not the devil played a major roll in these people’s death? I’m Just Saying?

    • Hi open minded,

      It’s all so easy isn’t it, to just explain away bad things to a devil and good things to a god? It conveniently takes away the need to do some hard research and thinking.

      AC/DC means AC/DC – I can just as easily claim that it means Anti-Communist/Democratic-Campaigner, but the former sounds more dramatic doesn’t it, and is perfect for your religionist agenda isn’t it? What proof do you have that a devil exists? And no we all don’t know that the devil plays a role in the entertainment industry – where is your proof and where do you get the statistic from?

      How and where do you SELL YOUR SOUL? I’m interested in selling mine, as I could do with the cash. Please let me know – I’ll even share some of the dosh with you.

      There is no such thing as mind control. There is however such a thing as weak minds being susceptible to brain-washing; religious belief is proof of that.

      And yes, I know only too well what you’re getting at – I’ve heard and read it hundreds of times before and I’m still not convinced, not even a teeny-tiny little bit.

      • What proof do you have that the devil doesn’t exist??? And yes that could be a meaning for AC/DC but not THE BAND AC/DC. Its very CLEAR you had a bad experience with the Christian religion, but not all Christians are Christ-like or TRUE Christians same with Athiest or any other religion for the matter. It’s very apparent you don’t read KJV bible or the bible at all. Sure it has been re-written many of times BY MAN and yet you would rather believe in Scientology BY MAN. You say things happen naturally and you believe in naturality but HOW if you go off Science? But, Im sure Scientifically you know how you got here but not sure why naturally. Maybe if you were part of the music or entertainment industry or had any talent at all, you would know just exactly how going against your morals(if any) or selling you soul for cash goes. But maybe you’re just like most noraml people working a 9-5 everyday living check to check or not working at all.

        • Hi open minded,

          “What proof do you have that the devil doesn’t exist???” Something is not necessarily true if it cannot be proven false. This is known as an argument from ignorance or argumentum ad ignorantiam. It is a common informal logical fallacy. I am not the one making claims for the existence of hell – you are. As such, the onus is on you to provide the evidence for your claim. It’s like me claiming that a giant teapot circles the sun at the outer extremities…and challenging you to proove that I’m lying.
          I never was a Christian, nor will I ever be one. I know much more about the King James bible than a lot of Christians. You see I actually read and interpret it using logic and reason – unlike some Christians who prefer to hear about it from someone else and take their word for it.
          I don’t believe in Scientolology; never have, never will. It’s as absurd as all religions and cults, perhaps even more so.
          Science is used to explain the natural world. You seem to think that that they’re opposing concepts, when in fact they’re inextricably linked. There is a natural explanation for everything. Just because science hasn’t found a lot of the answers yet, doesn’t mean that it never will some day. As scientists we’re prepared to wait for scientific proof to explain something, rather than accept a non-scientific or super-natural explanation for it.

          Since you’re making a lot asumptions about me, allow me to make a few about you:
          1. You’re not familiar with critical thinking and logical fallacies, or you don’t undertsand them. This being the case, I will undertand if you have difficulty comprehending what I have written in the opening lines above.
          2. You have not been educated in any field of science.
          3. You are not aware that Scientology has nothing to do with science, and thus I conclude that your understanding of this cult is questionable.

          If you would like, I could point you to some excellent resource materials online that explains these concepts of critical thinking, logical fallacies, skepticism etc.

  107. Did not Eve fornicate with her own son? Or was it that Eves’s son fornicated with his sister….I believe she was several hundred years younger than he was. Did not Noah’s sons fornicate with their mother? Can “Openminded” be the devil?. Should he visit a Catholic Priest to receive an exorcism to get the demons out of him?

    • If anyone possessed, its you! Its VERY CLEAR You read the bible only to FIND CONTRADICTIONS and DESTROY HIS HOLY NAME. Oh, by the way, how is that going. Do you get any sleep or do you stay up all day and alnight because you are possessed by the devil. You proul this entire blog just to fabricate and Jesus said they will hate because they hated him. Scorpioa, do you hate Jesus? No need to answer

  108. To “Open Minded”. You are a vexation to all that is decent & good. Jesus despises you! If there was ever any doubt that the devil exists, you have proven that he does exist in the hearts and souls of sick, evil people such as you. The devil does not admit he’s the devil. He comes in sheep’s clothing as you do, under false pretenses. It is you that has the pounding in his head during the night because of all the hatred you exude. You pretend to be full of love, but your comments prove otherwise. You are dangerous to yourself as well as others. If you do not visit a Catholic Priest soon, you will end up doing serious harm to someone, including yourself.. Heed my words!

  109. Oh Lord my GOD whatever the devil say, you are still my fortress, my daddy, my healer, my rock, my salvation, my shield, my hiding place, my deliverer,my master, my protector The God who told the sun where to stand in the morning, The very same God who told the ocean you can only come this far. I would’t trade my God for silver or God.
    I have come a long way with my daddy, always taking care of me.

    • Miss Bee: You are a very selfish egocentric individual. You only worry that Jesus takes care of you & therefore you are happy. What about the millions of poor innocent little children born deformed, without limbs or eyesight destined to suffer the rest of their unfortunate lives, or those born with congenital deseases that torture them every day of their existence? Have you considered them? Of course you haven’t! You just go around tra la la ing for you own selfish pleasures! And don’t tell me you pray for them. If you really cared you would condemn Jesus for allowing & causing their suffering. And don’t tell me it’s the devil’s doings. If so, then he has more power than Jesus & you should therefore pray to him! Or maybe you don’t even believe in Jesus. You do not mention his name in the above. Do you?

  110. Hi lenny, i’ve been following the comments and contributions on this blog and i find it very interesting. I’m not going to comment though, but i just have one observation and question to add to it. We have all centered our talks on the existance of God and Jesus, but we seem to have forgotten another significant being, the devil (satan, lucifer what ever you want to refer to him as). Whats your take on his existence, and is he the source of evil?, and if not, what is?

    • Hi Osy,

      Satan is no more significant that any gods or so-called sons of gods. The probability of Satan’s existence is on par weith that of any god.

      Evil? What do you consider as evil? It’s not cut and dried like everyne thinks. I don’t believe in absolute morality. It’s all subjective.

      Are you familiar with this quote by Epicurus:

      Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
      Then he is not omnipotent.
      Is he able, but not willing?
      Then he is malevolent.
      Is he both able and willing?
      Then whence cometh evil?
      Is he neither able nor willing?
      Then why call him God?

    • Osy:
      Jesus is the source of evil. He allows hurricanes & floods to drown & tear the limbs off little innocent children. He allows earthquakes to bury innocent children alive, under rocks & stone as they cry for his help. He has the power to stop & overcome all this, but refuses to do so. Satan’s powers of evil pale in significance to the power of Jesus.

  111. Your site is just what I was searching for. You have
    no idea how long I have been thinking about the same thing!
    I am so ecstatic that I am not alone.

  112. Hi Lenny,

    Believe it or not, I came across the hoax email for the first time today and in trying to research its veracity, I stumbled on your post. Its been a number of years since your original posting but I still feel a need to respond to it. Hope you don’t mind.

    If there’s one thing I appreciate about your comments, its your readiness to challenge what does not seem to make any logical sense to you.. The power of free will, free thinking and free speech are gift I do not take for granted.

    Do you agree with me that the fact you cannot see something or touch it or can’t bring yourself to believe in its existence isn’t enough proof that it really does not exist? Maybe to you it doesn’t, but to someone else, its as as real as the ground they stand on.

    Millions of people around the world have experienced this God and His son Jesus in tangible ways.. Many have seen him physically (while not under the influence of drugs or alcohol :)) and have received miraculous interventions in hopeless situations (I am one of them).. To these people, nothing you say, (no matter how logical or scientifically sound your case is) will make them rethink His existence.. That I can’t see or even make sense of gravity on earth (forget what I was taught in college..) does not in any way impact the reality of its existence, I have bruises to prove gravity exists. 😉

    The fact that I believe something you don’t doesn’t me less intelligent than you are (as some comments have implied), neither does it mean i’m gullible or ‘weak-willed’ or just some emotional freak who would choose to believe in some unseen higher being rather than take charge of her life! It simply means I have experienced something you haven’t.. something so real and powerful that I would stick my neck out for it even at gun point! I believe God is real but His existence is not my job (or anyone else’s) to prove. Those that try to fight His fight mostly end up on the receiving end of a verbal or even physical assault (like most of the ‘defenders of the faith’ that have commented on this post)

    God loves variety, both the believing and the unbelieving and His message is that of love not condemnation. God is not a destroyer and I apologize on behalf all who propagate hate in the name of God. That is not the God I know and have experienced.

    Take Care.

    • Hi MrsKujero,

      Thanks for responding. Sorry I didn’t reply sooner – I was out of the country.

      “Do you agree with me that the fact you cannot see something or touch it or can’t bring yourself to believe in its existence isn’t enough proof that it really does not exist?”

      This is a common logical fallacy. One cannot prove or disprove a negative. Millions of people experience something, yes. And millions more don’t. When experiencing something you cannot explain, it is not logical, not to mention scientific, to attribute it to a supernatural cause. One has to first exhaust all natural explanations and then you still cannot just accept that it was due to a supernatural event.

      The example of gravity is used frequently by religious apologists to explain their position. However, gravity is quantifiable, and measureable. God is not. Even if you don’t observe gravity as a physical object, you are subject to its effects which are quantifiable, observeable and measureable. Faith is not required to accept that gravity exists.

      I could just as easily assert that the Flying Spaghetti Monster (FSM***) loves variety and compel people to believe that it’s a fact. Will you accept my assertion that the FSM exists without proof?

      Thanks once again.

      *** The FSM is an old atheist joke, like the flying teapot which we jokingly maintain is in orbit around the earth. You can Google it you’re interested to learn more.

  113. I notice a plethora of responses dating back to 2008. Let me respond briefly on a few issues based on my own observations;

    I am aghast at the number of people who are stuck in a specific religious dogma who haven’t done much reading. Their beliefs are usually based on what they heard from others. Even reading their own sacred book is almost non-existent. In order to form your own opinion you have to read just about anything and everything. You don’t necessarily have to believe everything you read, but it’s of utmost importance that you question what you read. My first book I ever read, at 16 y.o age, was Erich von Daniken’s book; Chariots of the Gods. I found out much later that Eric’s work was pseudo-scientific, inaccurate and unsupported in the scientific community. But this book became the point of departure for further investigation. So based on the thread of replies to Lenny, let me ask some of you the following;

    – Has prayer shown conclusive evidence in solving problems from health to world peace? (emphasis on conclusive and under CONTROLLED conditions)

    – We talk about the God of love yet the Old Testament is filled with violence commanded and ordained by God. Is this the same omnipotent all powerful complex loving God who created everything in this universe; the same divine entity resorting to humanlike anger and behaviour? Stories of bloodshed, slaughter, racial intolerance, rage, support for slavery, subjugation of women, religious intolerance, condemnation of homosexuality, sacrifice, commandments to kill every man, women and child, including a plethora of other bloodthirsty acts of violence fill the pages of the Old Testament. I fail to see the love!

    – Can you seek some entity that doesn’t exist. If you say you ‘found’ God then how exactly did you find Him? Do we as people think about what would be good, and then attribute these qualities to God thereby creating an image of him in our minds? Is this how some people find Him?

    – The concept of Hell is not consistent with the plethora of Christian denominations. Many simply do not believe in the concept of Hell

    – In one of the replies someone asks Lenny; “How dare you mock our God?” (emphasis on OUR.) How many Gods are there?

    – Be honest with yourself, irrespective of which religion you were born into presently. If you were born in another country, another time or from another family. What belief system would you be following today? Whose doctrine would you be preaching now? Would it be Horus or Osiris from Egypt, Bacchus, Mithras, Muslim, Christianity, Buddhism, Cargo Cult, or any of the other 20 000 different religions?

    The above are just a few honest questions that you need to ask yourself. Religion, unfortunately, rests on shaky ground hence the birth of an incredible number of different religions or, different denominations within Christianity. Each one believes his right and all the others are the so called false prophets. Common folks, something is seriously wrong with this picture. Surely an almighty deity would have handed down one universal life manual which should be applicable to all.

  114. I’ve received the email,I’m a Christian but I didn’t forward because the message in the mail isn’t the God I know.

    I wasn’t a Christian till some serious things happened in my life and I came to know God,Jesus Christ has saved my life and He’s so important to me,from a person who has no value till who am I today.By sharing this,you or others may think that I’m trying to Preach or argue what you’ve posted or Prove something else…..Well,I’m just what to say that,even if God/Bible is not a matter to you,yet it’s important to many life,I’m not here to point what you posted is right or wrong,but I personally think that mutual respect between human is very important. I don’t called my non-Christian friends a stupid and I hope they won’t call me an idiot as a Christian.

    I don’t agree forward the email as much as we can just to let others fear God,God is a patient God who willing to wait for our repentaces.

    Dear other brother & sister in Christ,please stop scolding Lenny if you don’t like his post,just remember what bible teach us(Galatians 5:22-23 ).We whom believe in God,we shall let God judge those who mock Christ,we’re not God and we have no right to judge.Even it’s sad that how our God being mock and how Christianity being called foolish,yet we must do what Jesus does,love 1 another.Lenny even you do not believe in God and maybe do not like Christian,still I’ll pray for you to have a bless life. 🙂

    • Hi Sara,

      It’s not the scolding that bothers me, it’s the lame attempts to rationalize a belief system. If your belief is a personal thing and you “don’t preach.” then I have no problem with that; you’re a good Christian.

  115. No need to mention that you are a non believer. But do you think the big bang happened just by itself without any reason? And after that the whole universe took its form alone? And man came into existence, do you think you are born in this world only because your parents had sex without any reason? For everything their is a reason that God has planned. Even Paul was a non believer and was against the christians but at last he was one of the greatest disciple. Those who believe for them no explanation is needed but those who don’t no explanation can be done. Just think for sometime. I hope you will have your faith one day.

  116. Lenny my friend it doesn’t happen simply. The thing u call ‘Science’ is only the way that things happen. But ever thought of who created science? Or do you think science created itself? Where science ends the power of my Lord begins. Jesus broke all the scientific laws, we say miracles just to make us believe. He has the power over your science, the power of which you will know one day and that day you will feel very sorry for what you are doing now.

  117. I have enjoyed going through all the posts and comments. It seems all of history and humanity has been reflected in these comments and lines of reasoning. I would like to see this discussion continue. I have often wondered about Christianity and humans in other religions. Lenny, how would you respond to the assertion by some that as humans are an evolved species from other living creatures on earth, that they do not represent the end of the line? That there “may” be a higher order of beings as well, leading ultimately to one that is supreme ? I apologize that this may not be directly related to the post about the emails, but I just want the discussion to continue.

    • Hi Nicholas,

      No need to apologize; I appreciate any rational input. There may well be “higher beings,” even aliens who are more advanced than us, but there is no concrete evidence available yet. As such, I see no point in dwelling on this possibility, when there is so much in the natural world that is real, awesome and mind-boggling, that we can marvel at and focus our attention on. If the evidence presents itself, we can well start to dig for more answers…

      I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it though.

  118. Plus about Marilyn Monroe… she was (who knows) probably killed by the first CATHOLIC president of the US… who, by the way, maybe had an affair with her…

  119. i think some people in this blog are next in line… if you know what I mean… and our God is not vengeful by the way, get to know more about Him before creating something like this.. thank you and God bless

    • Hi Follower,

      Really?

      Nahum 1:2 > “The LORD is a jealous and vengeful God; the LORD is vengeful and strong in wrath. The LORD is vengeful against his foes; he rages against his enemies.” Says so in the bible. Or do you also pick and choose what to believe?

      And isn’t it vengeful to say that some people in this blog will be next in line?

  120. yeah the lord is jealous and vengeful.. ive seen bad and good, things that couldnt be explained.. but why should i question my lord, when i know nothing of his plan.. why judge jesus’s doing when i never experieced his pain and suffering that was brought to him by his own..i never read the bible.. i rarely go to church.. so why do i have all my faith in the hands of Christ? I believe in him because he already showed me that i can trust him… he didnt show you, he showed me.. so i could care less on how you feel.. i love my lord.. i will always love my lord.. im not ashamed of it.. never will be.. he’s in my heart along with my fallin family who are angels in heaven now.. i was born to follow him. not by being forced. but by the will of myself… i pray/sing to san judas with my family in mexico. and i love it.. i feel more happy. like if all the negativity has left from my body.. when im down i cry… but when i look up, i smile… because i dont think.. i know Jesus is takin care of things as much as he can. i have to put in work too. i cant let him do everything.. thats not fair..

    • Hi Edgar,

      Don’t you find it strange that an all-powerful deity would have the self-same base characteristics that man has? But you don’t question, do you? Blind acceptance is not a virtue.

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  123. Whoever thinks that God is not their is a fool! And for your infortion, we don’t need to visit the grave of Jesus for he is not there. He rose.

  124. Whoever thinks that God is not their is a fool! And for your information, we don’t need to visit the grave of Jesus for he is not there. He rose.

  125. I do believe in God and Jesus. And my biggest wish right now is to see the face of that person who wrote this article when He will reveal himself.

  126. Please read the facts on the Titanic…in several articles, of that day, it was referred to as unsinkable…including a major article by Captain Edward Smith several years earlier about how sound shipbuilding was. A year before her maiden voyage two major newspapers, of that time, ran articles about how sound the ship was and it was unsinkable.

    As times goes by the exact wording has been changed to reflect modern day language but when given the exact words used by those of that era one can quickly find the facts that the word “unsinkable” was used in several publications as well as by the White Star Line which can be construed as the shipbuilder himself approving the language.

    I had tickets to the Beatles US tour but when Lennon came out with his remarks. There was talk of cancelling the US Tour. Backlash across this country was tremendous by the Christian movement of that time. Both he and Brian Epstein came out apologizing for his remarks. The Beatles were very popular in my generation and during the 60s and 70s in which they created some great music but they were not near as popular as the Christian Movement here in the U.S. The backlash moved across the Globe and there were protest in South America (if my memory is correct.) To date Lennon is wrong Christianity has not shrunk or gone away. Perhaps time will tell but to date (from 1965-or 66 (which ever year he made the comment) to 2013) Christianity has grown in popularity while the Beatle Support Group has shrunk with the new generation saying the Beatles, and other groups from my generation, played “Bubblegum Music” compared to their hip-hop music.

    • Hi Richard

      “A year before her maiden voyage two major newspapers, of that time, ran articles about how sound the ship was and it was unsinkable.”

      Since when has the mere fact of writing about something, made that become reality? It does not matter how many wrote that the shiop was unsinkable, the sinking was just an accident. Simple. Trying to put a spin on it is merely wishful thinking, not to mention fallacious.

      “To date Lennon is wrong Christianity has not shrunk or gone away. Perhaps time will tell but to date (from 1965-or 66 (which ever year he made the comment) to 2013) Christianity has grown in popularity…”

      Read the PEW stats on Christianity and religion in general. They are without doubt dying a slow, agonizing death, even if you don’t see or experience it in your immediate or wider surroundings. Secularism is growing all over the world. And that’s good news for the future of mankind.

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  128. Hummm,these people mentioned,have achieved greatness α̲̅πϑ their name can’t be forgotten α̲̅πϑ their grave Α̲̅я̩̥̊ε̲̣̣ visited.have U̶̲̥̅̊ ever thought where they wil be afta death.Jesus grave W̶̲̥̅̊ɑ̣̣̝̇̇s̶̲̥̅̊ Πό̲̣̣̣̥T̶̲̥̅̊ visited cos He Ȋ̝̊̅§ Πό̲̣̣̣̥T̶̲̥̅̊ there but i̶̲̥̅̊n̶̲̥̅̊ heaven.God can never be a murderer.God plan †̥ man Ȋ̝̊̅§ perfect, Ȋ̝̊̅†̥ hurt Him when any one dies outside Him,He love all man whether good ® bad α̲̅πϑ long fϑя us †̥ retrace our steps α̲̅πϑ He Ȋ̝̊̅§ alway there †̥ welcome us back. Name all the novel written, D̶̲̥̅̊ bible Ȋ̝̊̅§ very interesting α̲̅πϑ D̶̲̥̅̊ bible carries peace but only if U̶̲̥̅̊ Α̲̅я̩̥̊ε̲̣̣ ready †̥ embrace Ȋ̝̊̅†̥.please Ȋ̝̊̅†̥ wil be beter if we hold our peace mostly if we don’t understand things.because those words wil judge us.these world W̶̲̥̅̊ɑ̣̣̝̇̇s̶̲̥̅̊ Πό̲̣̣̣̥T̶̲̥̅̊ Juڪ† there but someone that has been i̶̲̥̅̊n̶̲̥̅̊ existent form Ȋ̝̊̅†̥ α̲̅πϑ we were Πό̲̣̣̣̥T̶̲̥̅̊ Juڪ† born as human bt He made us α̲̅πϑ formed us i̶̲̥̅̊n̶̲̥̅̊ our mother womb.Heaven Ȋ̝̊̅§ real α̲̅πϑ hell Ȋ̝̊̅§ also real.we won’t die α̲̅πϑ remain i̶̲̥̅̊n̶̲̥̅̊ D̶̲̥̅̊ grave but our spirit wil return back †̥ our creator.much love,PEACE

  129. Lenny you may not believe in the contents in the Bible. but take a trip to Israel, take a bible with you and make sure you visit ancient holy sites. then compare bible accounts and what you see on ground. perhaps you might be convinced otherwise.

    However, whether you believe or not, it doesn’t change the fact that the bible is a holy book, inspired by God himself. And everything written in it, is true.

    I have, over many years applied bible’s teachings and the results have been astonishing.
    overwhelmingly correct and dependable……

  130. Hey smartypants,
    I looked up your website to verify the veracity of the statements and times of death and you cleared that up for me (and then some). But saying that who visited Jesus’s grave site recently is crass stupidity check the number of people who go to Israel on pilgrimage.

    Just get ALL facts straight before shoving atheism in our faces.

    Thanks

    • What Lenny (poor lost soul) doesn’t understand is that there were eye witnesses to all the events that took place in the Bible from Geneses on up. They were carefully & meticulously recorded. How else could the Bible have been written & existed? What does he think …God made these stories up? Even Jesus showed us proof! The disciples gave verification & confirmation.

  131. Well,I am a devout christian who believes in God but whether this is true or not,I believe that no one should mock God.He is caring and merciful but he is also a jealous God and a burning fire.we should be careful of what we say and do so as not to bring his wrath upon us. God is loving and the creator of the universe,everything in it is his. And I believe that he also has the right to do as it pleases him so all we need is his grace of which he already said is sufficient. God be with us!!!

    • This guy CINMA hates his GOD. You don’t love someone whom you fear. But Chinma is a hypocrite pretending to love his GOD for fear he’ll be struck dead. Chinma is bearing false witness & GOD knows it. GOD hates him as much as he hates his GOD. Chinma is a liar, a fake & a fraud.
      Remember GOD is vengeful & is paying close attention to Chinma’s hypocrisy. I do not fear GOD, therefore GOD loves me.

    • Hi chinma,

      Do you really believe that a loving god could be jealous and would do with the world as he/she/it sees fit?

      Don’t you find this ideology to be self-hating?

  132. at least yall heard, and received the info,
    people are free to believe what they wanna believe,

    i for one take those emails seriously, of cause its me, not all of us,
    mocking God has adverse consequences.

    the moral of the story is “don’t mock God”

    peace

  133. May you find spiritual enlightenment, Lenny. You’re thoroughly confused mate. God is real. What, do you believe in the silly big bang nonsense? And ‘apes became humans’ rubbish? Then why are there still apes? Why aren’t there half apes, half humans – still transforming? Wake up, brother. God lives.

    • Lukhanyo, seems you’re the one who’s confused, mate. You obviously don’t understand evolution, otherwise you won’t be spouting this nonsense about apes becoming humans. Wake up “brother.”

  134. The Devils tactic is to make us blaspheme against God, thereby disrespecting Him. Have you asked yourself, what do you stand to gain by doing that? What if you respected God who created you, and you find that He does not exist, the truth is that you have nothing to lose. You insist that there is no proof that a God exists, but you can’t prove that He does not either. It is better to tell yourself, there is a God that created you, then try get to know Him and know what else He has done for you (including sending Jesus to die for your sins, and all other signs and wonders) and you will speak with better understanding when you do. Practically, no human being will love you to blaspheme against him or her. People sue for slander. How much more it would be wrong to blaspheme against God.

  135. Why would any believer defend an email full of lies and distortions? The Marilyn Monroe quote is a direct lie. Bill Graham’s spokespeople said there was never a meeting between the two. The last thing a belief should be based on is a direct lie.

  136. you are a BIG FOOL for insulting GOD by your stupid reply to all the famous people, who insulted GOD and died! yes, they died miserably cos of their stupidity and pride, just like the devil and are sure rottening in HELL. like it or not, The Holy Bible is the word and deeds of God! you better give your pathetic life to Jesus Christ, (that is if your still alive) so that he can fix your already broken life b4 it is too late!

    • I hope you realize that your contempt for grammar has relegated god to a son of a bitch.

      But off course such things don’t concern you – you’re too immersed into waiting for my death.

  137. I’ve read a load of comments from Lenny and his pal Scorpioea. Seems they’ve both sat out this forum for yrs taking on everyone who dares comment from another perspective. Since d debate has been on for so long, I’m not sure they both still respond. If any of you two guys still do, then I’ll love to take you guys on. Can I? Pls let me know… Tnx!

  138. I’ve read a load of comments from Lenny and his pal Scorpioa. Seems they’ve both sat out this forum for yrs taking on everyone who dares comment from another perspective. Since d debate has been on for so long, I’m not sure they both still respond. If any of you two guys still do, then I’ll love to take you guys on. Can I? Pls let me know… Tnx!

  139. Blessings on you and I will continue to pray, ( the feeling you get that faith is necessary to achieve a task) for you and all those who post and send those manipulative ( any thing said or done to invoke a decision on man or woman not or girl, whether good or bad it’s wrong) religious messages. I myself won’t stop believing in the creator that made Heaven And Earth there’s too much to prove that He is real I love you all that are reading this and thank you for allowing me the opportunity to share with you all all praise, glory and honor be to Yahweh, Elohim through YahShua the messiah amen

  140. I came to this page because I was researching on the validity of the statements against their consequence on the said e-mail. I had wanted to make reference to some of the statements but I wouldn’t allow rumours to get into my book. I don’t lie to people to get them saved.

    While I agree with the author about the annoying nature of the chain-emails promising blessings or threatening punishments, I disagree with him in the way he analysed the rest of the content. I also agree that tying cause and effect after 14 years looks weak.

    The writer repeatedly uses “Let’s assume for the sake of argument.” He had shown that he is going to establish “The Real Facts”, not assumptions. By hiding behind “let us assume…” he is moderating if not cunningly diminishing the potency between cause and effect. His aim seems not to be establishing authenticity of cause/effect, but berating divinity. His conclusion in each case of famous people is “what more can you ask from life?” But this conclusion only tells that the dead “benefits” from a fame even after they are dead. Why should they ‘ask’ for this if death turns them into nothing?

    The writer writes from a position of curious hatred for religion. Most people berating religion do it generally without taking note that there is a true and a false religion.

    “Christine Hewitt was absolutely correct to say that the bible was the worst book ever written.” Really?, “absolutely correct”? Tell me this is a hypabole.

    “The kind of filth portrayed in the bible as the word of some supernatural power that has dominion over us all, cannot be regarded as good by any intelligent, rational, thinking person. ”

    The Bible contains some of the profound life-transforming words ever. How can the golden rule–do not do to others what you’d not like them do to you filth? I stopped having affairs with other people’s wives when I got saved. Has the Book made me filthy now or I was filthy before?

    How can love your enemies be filthy? Try it! Engage in a tug of war with someone who is not holding his end of the rope and see if there is going to be any “war”. That is the wisdom implied when the Bible admonishes us not to avenge wrongdoing.

    “Any intelligent person who understood that religion is a drug would have said as much.” I wonder how the author measure “intelligence.” Maybe we, believers, are not intelligent but who measures this? Well, religion is a drug–there are good drug and bad drugs- the kind of drug my religion is can cure “imoraliosis” a sickness that intelligence doesn’t cure. Some of the murderers, adulterers, thieves, etc, are educated and intelligent people.

  141. Whoever wrote this is obviously not a christian and probably doesn’t believe in anything but his swollen ego this article….i have no right to complain for no one should judge another.

  142. Religion is not a drug, it is believing and following God.
    You my not believe in God but thats your choice, who are you to question him.
    So you Really can’t say these ppl weren’t punished by God.

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