Give and take is all it takes. I give, you take. You give, I take. Instead of acting all incredulous about my answers lets just answer and respect each other and yes I have gorged myself on the rhetoric of others. But then so have you. Perhaps we need ground rules. Instead of trying to make me look bad, try and respect my position. Which is a position of personal experience and although you don’t believe in God as I do. We should still be able to have meaningful dialogue without the need to show me how smart you think you are.

There are problems in both camps with bullshit from both sides and although that is true it doesn’t have to spill into our dialogue. We both agree that religion is a farce, we both agree that love is possible without religion, we both agree that we are human, we both agree we did not start this. And we can both agree to respect the others position, can’t we?

We are both incredible people and so are others. When you can see that in others they will see it in you. You want someone to be impressed with you. Well then be impressed with them. God thinks very highly of us human beings which reminds me of a story in Genesis 11. You know the one, the story of Babel which explains the all the different peoples of the earth and the different dialects as well.

Something from that story has always resonated in me since my first reading it. God thinks very highly of us so much so, that He said look at what they do if we allow them to this nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.

The Tower of Babel

So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. That is why it was called Babel —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

Love and the experience of God?
So you admit that love is not predicated on a belief in a supernatural entity. We are making progress. I agree that the world needs more love, but that does not mean that everyone needs to get all religious or start believing in mythical beings, to give or show love.

Other beliefs other than Jesus Christ:
So other beliefs are not completely wrong, but yours is completely right? Right?
And thanks, but I don’t think I want a ride in your invisible chariot. I’ll take the mode of transport that I can touch, feel and see.

The borrowed myth of Jesus Christ as Messiah:
This is not a trend as in fashion. Its a growing body of evidence. And it wont become less trendy in a few years or months.
So, after two thousand years, the Romans are still to blame? Why? Have they got some magical grip on all Christians,that prevents them from changing all the wrong things?

Faith antithetical to Science:
This is so unbelievably absurd and disingenuous, that I don’t know whether to roll on teh floor laughing or tear my hair out. You have been gorging on the apologist rhetoric haven’t you? Yeah, I suppose if you look hard enough and bend the biblical texts to the right degree, you could find the theory of quantum electrodynamics or a bag-full of other scientific discoveries, somewhere in the bible? It’s just a pity that in two thousand years, nobody could figure out all the scientific facts contained in the bible. Who knows where mankind could have been today? Flying to the moon or other planets could have been like driving to the shop around the corner. Instead, people are still on their knees, praying for things to happen. Hell, I wonder why scientists are wasting their time at CERN, on the Large Hadron Collider? Maybe the Higgs Boson Particle they are looking for is hidden somewhere in the bible?

Love and the experience of God?

Our love as humans is always conditional, Gods love is non-conditional and is the source for our finite emotion we call love. If we as people can love, whether we are spiritual, religious, have experienced God, et al. Then we must realize the difference between karma and grace. If we give to those that need it most, are we giving to charity or to justice? This type of thinking differentiates us from the animal kingdom, that has no sense of justice. Therefore I am in no way stating that anyone is incapable of love due to their belief system. However I am saying; that we are here to learn to love. And a love that is higher than our highest thought on the subject. This is the message of Jesus Christ. For he said;

’You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

The enigma of Jesus’ statement is that we cannot do the first without succeeding at the second. And to say that this world needs more love is a gross understatement of the highest degree.

Other beliefs other than Jesus Christ:

I do not think they are completely wrong nor do I propose that they are delusional. However just like there is more than one way to reach a destination. So then live by your precepts, but be open to other forms of transportation that can help you in your journey. For example if you are walking but I am driving and offered you a ride, would you say no I don’t believe in motored transportation?

The borrowed myth of Jesus Christ as Messiah:

Yes, Lenny I am fully aware of this trend that says that Christianity has borrowed from ancient religions and I agree with it fully. My stance is this; “If you believe that Jesus Christ came to start a new religion called Christianity, then you are stupid and blind to the facts of Jesus Christ. The cool thing about being stupid is it can be stopped by listening and blindness by opening ones centre to further truth. My grade four teacher had a sign on his desk that said; “Listening is Learning”.

I know that the best way to destroy something is from the inside out. If I was a virus well then I would prefer a warm host with which to multiply and thereby gain other hosts until my deadly rampage was done. Christian belief went from a persecuted belief to a persecuting religion under sway of the Romans. And as was always with the Romans the excelled at all they did. So in my opinion and my research of the topic; modern Christianity is built upon false precepts and must be torn down in order for the truth to be revealed.

Faith antithetical to Science:

1. Only in recent years has science discovered that everything we see is composed of invisible atoms. Here, Scripture tells us that the “things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

2. Medical science has only recently discovered that blood-clotting in a newborn reaches its peak on the eighth day, then drops. The Bible consistently says that a baby must be circumcised on the eighth day.

3. At a time when it was believed that the earth sat on a large animal or a giant (1500 B.C.), the Bible spoke of the earth’s free float in space: “He…hangs the earth upon nothing” (Job 26:7).

4. The prophet Isaiah also tells us that the earth is round: “It is he that sits upon the circle of the earth” (Isaiah 40:22). This is not a reference to a flat disk, as some skeptic maintain, but to a sphere. Secular man discovered this 2,400 years later. At a time when science believed that the earth was flat, is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world (see Proverbs 3:6 footnote).

5. God told Job in 1500 B.C.: “Can you send lightnings, that they may go, and say to you, Here we are?” (Job 38:35). The Bible here is making what appears to be a scientifically ludicrous statement—that light can be sent, and then manifest itself in speech. But did you know that radio waves travel at the speed of light? This is why you can have instantaneous wireless communication with someone on the other side of the earth. Science didn’t discover this until 1864 when “British scientist James Clerk Maxwell suggested that electricity and light waves were two forms of the same thing” (Modern Century Illustrated Encyclopedia). Is this not how we are communicating right now?

6. Job 38:19 asks, “Where is the way where light dwells?” Modern man has only recently discovered that light (electromagnetic radiation) has a “way,” traveling at 186,000 miles per second.

7. Science has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: “When the morning stars sang together…”

8. “Most cosmologists (scientists who study the structures and evolution of the universe) agree that the Genesis account of creation, in imagining an initial void, may be uncannily close to the truth” (Time, Dec. 1976).

9. Solomon described a “cycle” of air currents two thousand years before scientists “discovered” them. “The wind goes toward the south, and turns about unto the north; it whirls about continually, and the wind returns again according to his circuits” (Ecclesiastes 1:6).

10. Science expresses the universe in five terms: time, space, matter, power, and motion. Genesis 1:1,2 revealed such truths to the Hebrews in 1450 B.C.: “In the beginning [time] God’s [Elohim} created [power] the heaven [space] and the earth [matter] . . . And the Spirit of God’s moved [motion] upon the face of the waters.” The first thing God tells man is that He controls of all aspects of the universe.

11. The great biological truth concerning the importance of blood in our body’s mechanism has been fully comprehended only in recent years. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were “bled,” and many died because of the practice. If you lose your blood, you lose your life. Yet Leviticus 17:11, written 3,000 years ago, declared that blood is the source of life: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood.”

12. All things were made by Him (see John 1:3), including dinosaurs. Why then did the dinosaur disappear? The answer may be in Job 40:15–24. In this passage, God speaks about a great creature called “behemoth.” Some commentators think this was a hippopotamus. However, the hippo’s tail isn’t like a large tree, but a small twig. Following are the characteristics of this huge animal: It was the largest of all the creatures God made; was plant-eating (herbivorous); had its strength in its hips and a tail like a large tree. It had very strong bones, lived among the trees, drank massive amounts of water, and was not disturbed by a raging river. He appears impervious to attack because his nose could pierce through snares, but Scripture says, “He that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.” In other words, God caused this, the largest of all the creatures He had made, to become extinct.

13. Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who gave birth in hospitals. As many as 30 percent died after giving birth. Semmelweis noted that doctors would examine the bodies of patients who died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next ward and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped to 2 percent. Look at the specific instructions God gave His people for when they encounter disease: “And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself even days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean” (Leviticus 15:13). Until recent years, doctors washed their hands in a bowl of water, leaving invisible germs on their hands. However, the Bible says specifically to wash hands under “running water.”

14. Luke 17:34–36 says the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will occur while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime activities in the field. This is a clear indication of a revolving earth, with day and night at the same time.

15. “During the devastating Black Death of the fourteenth century, patients who were sick or dead were kept in the same rooms as the rest of the family. People often wondered why the disease was affecting so many people at one time. They attributed these epidemics to ‘bad air’ or ‘evil spirits.’ However, careful attention to the medical commands of God as revealed in Leviticus would have saved untold millions of lives. Arturo Castiglione wrote about the overwhelming importance of this biblical medical law: ‘The laws against leprosyin Leviticus 13 may be regarded as the first model of sanitary legislation’ (A History of Medicine).” Grant R. Jeffery, The Signature of God With all these truths revealed in Scripture,how could a thinking person deny that the Bible is supernatural in origin? There is no other book in any of the world’s religions (Vedas, Bhagavad-Gita, Koran, Book of Mormon, etc.) that contains scientific truth. In fact, they contain statements that are clearly unscientific. Hank Hanegraaff said, “Faith in Christ is not some blind leap into a dark chasm, but a faith based on established evidence.”

Some points to consider…

Praying for Lenny:

It is my honor to pray for you, if you have anything specific I would be glad to pray for that. For I do not consider it a waste of my time and allow time for it daily.

Three problems:

Are you suggesting that a person who has not “experienced god or Christ or spirituality” is incapable of experiencing, feeling or showing love?

Are you suggesting that because only Christ “made sense” to you, everyone else in the world who believes in the multitude of other gods/demons/whatever must be delusional/wrong. What makes you think that their particular choice of god was not the only one that made sense to them?

“Jesus Christ, is the only religious figure that makes an appearance in every major world religion and philosophy.” While this claim is dubious, has it occurred to you that the reason for Jesus seeming to appear in many other world religions is because Christianity borrowed the Christ figure from these very religions. You can google this. Christianity has been re-hashed from many other earlier and contemporary religions and traditions, most notably the Egyptian religious traditions and Mithraism. Many books have also been written on the subject. One author in particular has dedicated a large part of her life to writing about this. Acharya S/D.M. Murdock has written: “The Christ Conspiracy,” “Suns of God,” “Who Was Jesus?,” “Christ in Egypt,” “The Gospel According to Acharya S”. Many credible theologians concur. There is extensive proof out there.

It’s highly disingenuous to suggest that science and faith have anything in common. On the contrary, faith is antithetical to science.

In closing, praying for me is going to do neither me nor you, any good. Rather put the time to better use.

First let me say I appreciate your concern for my feelings, however I try not to put to much emotion into words other than taking the text at face value. I have lived approx. half my life thus far and have heard and seen many things. I love nature and regularly get away into the back country for some solitude or adventure. Depending on my needs or the needs of my fantastic offspring.

My spiritual life is and always will be part of my experience on this earth and the God I know has become an extension of my experience here. When my first child was born, I remember wondering how can I love someone else this much it changed me inside fully and completely. Perhaps it was the love of God overflowing in me. You see my God tells me through the written word that this life is about learning to love fully and completely others, myself and God. So being somewhat opinionated from an experience standpoint. What good are we if do not practice loving those in our home first, and succeeding at that first?

And that the gift is not our take on love but God’s take which is beyond our highest thought on the topic. Imagine that if you will, that, love; something that we all need as humans no matter what continent we are on. Just like we need water, food, shelter and oxygen so do we need love to grow and become more than we could ever imagine. God is about love and the missing link in our vacuous spirit. God need not be a theory, but is, for most people. All one need do to experience God, is to ask. I asked and from an unbelieving, as if he was real, ridiculing stance and He showed me a thing or two about who He is. My spiritual experience has been one of learning to love in this life, at which I am still working on daily. It’s all about love, love, love…

Experiential differentiation is the difference that makes anything that was not previously known, known. I was taught by the world that there was many Gods but I found only one that makes sense both spiritually and intellectually. Jesus Christ, is the only religious figure that makes an appearance in every major world religion and philosophy. So I bought myself a leather bound book sometime ago (New King James Version Spirit Filled bible) and it is a sense of amazement to me daily. One thing I have learned is that nowhere in the book does it say Jesus Christ came to start a new religion called Christianity. Unless you believe all the footnotes by various biblical scholars and adherents of the denominational system.

A doctor friend of mine who came from South Africa and now resides in Canada is a brain surgeon that believes in the same Jesus as me. He tells me that we have tomes and tomes of information on the human brain and that it only scratches the surface of the organ in our skulls. Science and faith can go hand and hand but religion and science seem to be at odds. As you may have guessed by now I am not religious but I believe in God and His Son Jesus Christ who is promised as the Saviour of all mankind.

Disclaimer: For clarity I have not always believed this. But believe that others in my life prayed for me to have understanding. And that subsequent intercessory prayer is what made the difference for my faith. So then my faith is not the in-your-face proselytizing of Christian denominationalism, but one of a covert nature and much less intrusive and subtle. It took me over thirteen years to discover this, I share it with you now. And I will pray for you as well.

Despite the way my responses may sound, I don’t have anything against you personally. I actually believe you’re a good guy. You just need more time to discover what exists outside of your religious beliefs.

I am open to the realities of the natural world. I see much more in nature, and in the world than most people normally do. I can appreciate all the beauty in the world without having to ascribe it to supernatural causes.

Atheists don’t “struggle” with Christianity. The reason it is picked on the most is because of its proselytizing and in your face nature. Recently though, Islam seems to have taken over this mantle.

I cannot “accept” that which most probably doesn’t exist.

What can I say, other than I like you. You have passion and a man that would die for what he believes or doesn’t believe, is OK by me. However are you open to more then what your current experience has to offer?

I have another question about God. Despite all the different religions out there and the Christian God being the one that you atheist struggle with the most, would you accept God as He is, if He said “Lenny I am God and I AM real”?

Alvin Plantinga: Christian apologist, psuedo-scientist, intelligent design supporter. Need I say more to discredit him?

His proposal that one can believe that a god can exist without the need for proof, is all rather too neat and convenient. Using arguments cloaked in semi-scientific (pseudo-scientific) reasoning is dishonest at best and fraudulent at worst.

The new testament is based loosely on history at best. For all the evidence you can find that points to its historical accuracy, there is an equal amount that points otherwise. Should I believe those that shout or threaten (with god’s wrath) the loudest, or the others?

“Would you bet your life that God certainly doesn’t exist?” Sure, I would; the probability for a god’s existence is practically zero. If a god does actually exist, and is anything like the religions describe, then I would gladly go to hell.

“If you answer yes to any of these then I suggest you reevaluate your belief and change your term to Agnostic as someone who hasn’t experienced God personally”

Actually, I’m still the atheist (I believe in no gods). You are the agnostic – you are agnostic about Shiva, Krishna, Allah, Zues, Appolo…pick a god from the thousands that compete(d) with Christianity.

I guess in your opinion I’m just a religious bigot attacking all the denominations that don’t align with my world view, as you put it. That’s funny because my world view has absolutely nothing to do with my thoughts on God. My belief in God is based on my experience, it is now part of my Noetic structure (The term noetic structure comes from ‘noeo’ in Greek which means to think or to understand. The term was coined by the epistimologist Alvin Plantinga. Everyone has a noetic structure).

The New Testament is the most historically accurate book in existence today due to the fact that there is well over 5,000 Greek manuscripts that testify to that fact. I could Google the evidence for you, but I won’t. If your going to take a stand on anything then consider what Martin Luther King Jr said; “Until you find something to die for, you haven’t begun to live”. Would you bet your life that God certainly doesn’t exist?

More on my attack on denominational divergence allow me to reiterate for you once again what my study of the most historically book reveals. I mean to believe that God sent Jesus Christ to start a new religion called Christianity is ludicrous at best. There are over 30,000 Christian denominations and of those 10,000 think they are the only way to salvation.

So to see that someone would photoshop a picture and try to pass it off as real to help further their own denominational belief in God is not surprising at all. However is anything real or is it all illusion? Do we only see what our bias sub-conscious mind wants us to see? Can we grow beyond limitations that we put on ourselves? Is there more then meets the eye?

If you answer yes to any of these then I suggest you reevaluate your belief and change your term to Agnostic as someone who hasn’t experienced God personally.

May…

The Lord bless and keep you;
The Lord make His face shine upon you,
And be gracious to you;
The Lord lift up his countenance upon you,
And give you peace

There is a difference between critical thinking and fantastical thinking. You attack the 30 000 odd other denominations that conflict with your own world-view; I don’t discriminate and thus attack all religious thinking, including your own.

You keep mentioning this “most historically accurate book in existence.” Where is your proof? It is certainly the most “misaligned” book in history – misaligned with reality!!!